# Obvious things about a creative work you realize after the millionth time (OPEN SPOILERS POSSIBLE) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 24, 2009, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117 "2009-07-24T13:20:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/681 "2010-02-11T18:11:59Z")
**E-Sabbath** , am I missing something or did you post that to the wrong thread? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/682 "2010-02-11T18:45:12Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > I don’t think I posted this before, but I’m not searching for it right now. > > My Wizard of Oz ‘can’t believe I didn’t catch that’ thing is that my mental image of the map of Oz was reversed. I always pictured the witch of the wests castle as being the eastern side of the map and Munchkin land as being to the west. I really don’t know why except that I have a vague recollection of seeing a map of Oz that way…though I could very well be mistaken. That’s because maps of Oz had the Winkie country and the WWW’s castle on the right side of the map, and the Munchkin country and the WWE’s castle on the left side of the map. This was very likely because whoever they hired to draw the map back in 190x Did Not Do the Research, and Just Didn’t Care. But it later became established Oz cannon that in the land of Oz East and West are reversed. It is a fairyland after all. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Piranha\_Brothers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aca169/32.png) [@The\_Piranha\_Brothers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Piranha_Brothers)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/683 "2010-02-11T19:10:00Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > I tend to miss basic plot elements until the tenth reading or so, never mind hidden meanings and such. > > F’r instance, Terry Pratchett’s _Small Gods_. I’m reading it for aproximately the one billionth time, and it occurs to me that deserts are a reoccuring theme here. There’s the deserts that prophets are associated with, the deserts around the citadel, the desert in the afterlife, the desert that Vorbis sneaks his troops across, the desert that Brutha crosses with Om and Vorbis… No, this hadn’t occured to me before. :smack: > > Thinking some more on Pratchett’s oeuvre, I realized that _Thief Of Time_ was a meditation on the meaning of humanity, along with its cons and pros. You know, because just about every character short of Jason struggles with that very issue over the course of the book? > > And _The Last Continent_, in addition to being about Asutralia, is about sex. Not just the bit with the God of Evolution- the whole UU wizards subplot is about Mrs. Whitlow, and the effect she has on them. > > Some day I will discover some other stunningly obvious theme while rereading my Discworld collection, and I will be sure give myself a :smack:. Pratchett is just full of little references. Sator Square for example. There is a website somewhere that explains them page by page. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Piranha\_Brothers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aca169/32.png) [@The\_Piranha\_Brothers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Piranha_Brothers)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/684 "2010-02-11T19:11:12Z")
> [@Aquilla](#): > > Disney’s The Lion King = Hamlet. A professor of mine pointed that out, and it just makes sense. Not that I would’ve ever caught on it, and I’ve seen it several times o.x > > I grew up with disney movies. We saw The Hunchback of Notre dame when it came out and twice or so afterwards, and it wasn’t until this year that the connotation of what Frollo wants with Esmeralda really hit me o.x; Aren’t the Gargoyles called Victor and Hugo? Victor Hugo was the writer… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Piranha\_Brothers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aca169/32.png) [@The\_Piranha\_Brothers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Piranha_Brothers)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/685 "2010-02-11T19:17:20Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > **Trivia note** Sherlock Holmes was actually a total jerk who treated Watson like a retarded child. “Elementary, my dear Watson” actually means “What an idiot you are, Watson.” I figured this out after becoming a huge fan of House MD and learning it was based on Sherlock Holmes. > > (As a side note, this is also a very famous fact: House and Wilson are supposedly Holmes and Watson.) > [@mshar253](#): > > I am replying to this over a month after it was posted, but I couldn’t let this slide. > > Did you ever read the Sherlock Holmes stories? Sherlock and Watson had a very good relationship. Sherlock was cold, sure, and he had his flaws, but it was apparent that he cared for Watson very much. > > Also, Sherlock never said, “Elementary, my dear Watson.” He said things were elementary, and he used the phrase “my dear Watson,” but it’s a misconception that “Elementary, my dear Watson,” was some kind of trademark phrase in Doyle’s stories. And Sherlock Holmes was based on doctor Joseph Bell. In one episode House even has a book written by Joseph Bell which he throws in the bin. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Piranha\_Brothers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aca169/32.png) [@The\_Piranha\_Brothers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Piranha_Brothers)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/686 "2010-02-11T19:28:59Z")
> [@The New and Improved Superman](#): > > In 2000, there was an intriguing movie called [Shadow of the Vampire](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0189998/). It’s a meta-fiction film that posits the idea the F.W. Murnau, director of the legendary silent horror film [Nosferatu](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0013442/) used a real “live” vampire to act as the vampire in the film. > > I don’t know if spoiler tags are necessary for a ten year old film, but just in case… > > The 2000 film’s climax occurs as Murnau is filming the final scene for the movie. A key plot point is that the actress playing the heroine in “Nosferatu” doesn’t know that she’s doing a scene with a real vampire, and certainly doesn’t know that Murnau has promised the vampire that he can actually drink her blood. She catches on though when she happens to glance into the mirror and see that the ‘actor’ playing the vampire has no reflection. > > Anyway, I happen to buy a DVD copy of “Nosferatu” several days ago, and watched it for the first time in years. I noticed that the set for that final scene, which “Shadow” duplicated precisely, also has a mirror in the very same corner. BUT, in the [original film](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1YmD9Pcb0w&feature=related) _the vampire does have a reflection_! Given the amount of research that obviously was done on the original film, I can’t imagine that this is a goof. Rather, I think it was a deliberate ‘inaccuracy’ meant as a wink_wink_nudge_nudge_ to all the folks who actually bothered to watch the original film. > > (On a small side note, had I known I could have watched the whole film on youtube, I wouldn’t even have bothered with the $6.00 DVD.) The non-reflection in Shadow of the Vampire is obviously done deliberately, knowing that there was a reflection in the original. But the reflection in the original movie? You do realise I hope that Nosferatu was made in 1922? They didn’t even have sound or colour film, let alone special effects. Of course they could have taken the mirror off the wall. But I doubt if much research went into it; it was just an illegal adaptation of Bram Stoker’s novel. And anyway, in the movie “Bram Stoker’s Dracula” Dracula can walk in broad daylight! It doesn’t hurt him, although it reduces him to a low powered vampire. (Start Eddie Izzard sketch…) ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/687 "2010-02-11T19:52:11Z")
> [@The\_Piranha\_Brothers](#): > > But the reflection in the original movie? > You do realise I hope that Nosferatu was made in 1922? They didn’t even have sound or colour film, let alone special effects. Making a mirror not reflect what the audience expects it to reflect doesn’t take much in the way of special effects, and was totally within the capabilities of 1922 filmmakers. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/688 "2010-02-11T19:52:57Z")
It just suddenly clicked for me that the Xanth series by legendary hack Piers Anthony is self-titled. PiersAnthony. PierXanthony. Xanth. God, what a egomaniac. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/689 "2010-02-11T19:53:58Z")
> [@The\_Piranha\_Brothers](#): > > They didn’t even have sound or colour film, let alone special effects. :dubious: Of course they had special effects - hell, Nosferatu added to the standard vampire mythos with special effects - a fade was used to make Orlok disintegrate in the sun. A point that doesn’t exist in Stoker’s novel. Interiors were filmed in a studio, not in real buildings, so it’s not like they couldn’t use camera angles, a hole in the wall, a photograph, or any number of other tricks to make the mirror not reflect Shreck, if they felt it was important - look outside the window, it’s clear they weren’t too concerned with making things look realistic. (Or, of course, they could have just not put one where it would reflect him.) Now, to make the two versions of the scene mesh, one could assume that Murnau, after killing the real Orlok, went back and refilmed the scene with an actor, making sure to get him in a mirror to hide the fact that he originally filmed it with a real no-reflection vampire. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/690 "2010-02-11T20:56:40Z")
> [@](#): > > This was very likely because whoever they hired to draw the map back in 190x Did Not Do the Research, and Just Didn’t Care. But it later became established Oz cannon that in the land of Oz East and West are reversed. It is a fairyland after all. Thank you for not making those into links to you-know-where. You’ve saved poor innocent posters countless hours of surfing. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/691 "2010-02-11T21:13:19Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > **E-Sabbath** , am I missing something or did you post that to the wrong thread? Posted it to the wrong thread. I meant to post it to the ‘digital bargains’ thread. My bad. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/692 "2010-02-11T21:39:21Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Thank you for not making those into links to you-know-where. You’ve saved poor innocent posters countless hours of surfing. I wonder how many of us are Tropers, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Piranha\_Brothers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aca169/32.png) [@The\_Piranha\_Brothers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Piranha_Brothers)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/693 "2010-02-11T23:52:27Z")
Many people, when in Salzburg, will visit the saltmines and suddenly realise that’s where the city got it’s name from. The same is probably true of Salt Lake City. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Piranha\_Brothers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aca169/32.png) [@The\_Piranha\_Brothers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Piranha_Brothers)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/694 "2010-02-12T00:03:48Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > Making a mirror not reflect what the audience expects it to reflect doesn’t take much in the way of special effects, and was totally within the capabilities of 1922 filmmakers. Is that so? I don’t know. Supposing the mirror is there by accident, how would they have removed the monsters reflection? > [@Tengu](#): > > :dubious: > > Of course they had special effects - hell, Nosferatu added to the standard vampire mythos with special effects - a fade was used to make Orlok disintegrate in the sun. A point that doesn’t exist in Stoker’s novel. > > Interiors were filmed in a studio, not in real buildings, so it’s not like they couldn’t use camera angles, a hole in the wall, a photograph, or any number of other tricks to make the mirror not reflect Shreck, if they felt it was important - look outside the window, it’s clear they weren’t too concerned with making things look realistic. (Or, of course, they could have just not put one where it would reflect him.) > > Now, to make the two versions of the scene mesh, one could assume that Murnau, after killing the real Orlok, went back and refilmed the scene with an actor, making sure to get him in a mirror to hide the fact that he originally filmed it with a real no-reflection vampire. In Shadow of the Vampire his reflection is clearly absent on purpose. In Nosferatu I can’t immediately think of a trick that was available in 1922. Replacing the mirror with a photo, or removing it alltogether, yes. A hole in the wall? For an identical but mirrorred room you mean? But is the reflection there in on purpose? Perhaps they simply did not care or did not pick up on the fact that vampires aren’t supposed to be visible in the mirror. After all, it isn’t vitally important in the book. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/695 "2010-02-12T00:07:42Z")
> [@The\_Piranha\_Brothers](#): > > And anyway, in the movie “Bram Stoker’s Dracula” Dracula can walk in broad daylight! It doesn’t hurt him, although it reduces him to a low powered vampire. That’s not just in the movie _Bram Stoker’s Dracula_, it’s in Bram Stoker’s _Dracula_ as well. Count Dracula can go out during the day if he wants to, but he apparently doesn’t like it and his powers are more limited than they are at night. He does it when he has to, though. In Chapter 24 Dracula is described as visiting the docks at about 5 pm (more than an hour before sunset) wearing “a hat of straw which suit not him or the time” to arrange for passage out of England. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/696 "2010-02-12T00:11:02Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Yesterday I was walking down the street singing “Yellow Submarine” > > Sky of blue and sea of green > In our yellow submarine > > when it hit me: > > Blue-green-yellow > To make blue green, yellow is added. Actually, I doubt that ever occurred even to the Beatles. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/697 "2010-02-12T00:13:15Z")
> [@The\_Piranha\_Brothers](#): > > Many people, when in Salzburg, will visit the saltmines and suddenly realise that’s where the city got it’s name from. The same is probably true of Salt Lake City. No, actually, that comes from when the Mormons first arrived in Utah. Their scouts reported back to Brigham Young: “It’s the promised land! Most of the time we’ll have nothing to do but fish and make love!” Giggles came from the tent of Young’s 27 wives. Brigham ordered: “Salt the lake!” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/698 "2010-02-12T01:22:57Z")
The simplest way to make a mirror not show a reflection of the vampire is to just choose your camera angles carefully, and that was certainly within their capabilities of the time. Next-simplest would be to make it a window onto a duplicate room, instead of an actual mirror, but they might have objected to the cost of an entire duplicate set. If the camera position was fixed, they could use a still picture (painting or photograph) of the reflection of the empty room in the mirror frame, though that would be given away if the camera ever moved. And even if the camera moved and the mirror were free-standing in the middle of the room, if they can move the camera precisely and in a replicable way, they could make one run through the scene without the actors, then put a green cover over the mirror, and do it again with the vampire actor (though I don’t know when the green-screen process was invented; probably some time after colored film, or at least after Technicolor). ---
**Author:** ![Electric\_Warrior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@Electric\_Warrior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Electric_Warrior)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/699 "2010-02-12T02:21:20Z")
I only recently realized how many rock riffs were written in the pentatonic scale. Several years after being told by my guitar teacher that it was the best scale for improvising in, too. ---
**Author:** ![Fair\_Rarity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fair_rarity/32/153_2.png) [@Fair\_Rarity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fair_Rarity)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2010, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/700 "2010-02-12T14:41:00Z")
I love the Golden Girls. Sophia was always talking about her horrible nursing home, Shady Pines. It just occurred to me this morning that shady is also a joke implying sketchy, not tree-lined. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=36)