# Obvious things about a creative work you realize after the millionth time (OPEN SPOILERS POSSIBLE) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 24, 2009, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117 "2009-07-24T13:20:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 47
**Author:** ![smoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@smoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smoke)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/921 "2011-02-25T22:04:03Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > Connery’s character was Agent 007 for a number of years, until he a) retired b) was killed on a mission we didn’t get to see because it failed c) was promoted d) had to be silenced e) other. I like to pretend that it was option d or e, and that Connery was secretly an imprisoned 007 in The Rock. I know the facts don’t add up, but it’s fun wankery. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/922 "2011-02-26T00:10:52Z")
I just recently realized that the title of the show **Being Human** could possibly be a play on “human being”. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/923 "2011-02-26T01:42:12Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > I’d say there’s a difference between “how do we update this series without alienating the fanbase or turning off new viewers” and “I refuse to believe that the same character can be portrayed by multiple actors, so I am going to insist that it must be different characters with the same name.” Interesting. Who was asserting that? > [@Koxinga](#): > > [W]e’re not talking about the _actor_, we’re talking about the _character_. James Bond portrayed in the world of the 60s by three different actors is fine by me . . . And regarding you guys’ Shakespeare example: not to put too fine a point on it, but that’s Shakespeare. Name one other playwright from four, three, or two centuries ago with several different plays in regular production today. If the faceless executive committees who have brought us interminable new versions of Batman, Superman and whatever else ever come up with something one hundredth the worth of Shakespeare, I might be willing to reconsider my position. For some, this argument should be self-evident. For others, it isn’t and there’s nothing I could ever do to sway you otherwise. Again, sadly, that’s apparently what movies these days does to you. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/924 "2011-02-26T02:24:14Z")
In O Brother Where Art Thou (“Based on the Odyssey”) I understood the reason for naming the protagonist Everett Ulysses McGill, but until I read the IMDB Movie Trivia I didn’t understand that his wife was named “Penny” for the same reason. One of the bad guys is named Homer, but I have no idea what the significance of that might be. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/925 "2011-02-26T03:27:26Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > One of the bad guys is named Homer, but I have no idea what the significance of that might be. [Homer](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer) wrote both _The Odyssey_ and _The Iliad_. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/926 "2011-02-26T05:30:07Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > [Homer](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer) wrote both _The Odyssey_ and _The Iliad_. That I know. Ulysses and Penny match up with their counterparts in the original tale. How does Homer Stokes match up with a (possibly) blind Greek poet? ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/927 "2011-02-26T07:29:26Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > That I know. Ulysses and Penny match up with their counterparts in the original tale. How does Homer Stokes match up with a (possibly) blind Greek poet? There’s not a literal connection. Some names and events don’t match up 100% between the two. Hell, in the movie, there’s only one suitor for Penny. It’s just a movie inspired by the poem, and some names and events are appropriated for whatever suits the Coen brothers’ purpose. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/928 "2011-02-26T15:11:04Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > And regarding you guys’ Shakespeare example: not to put too fine a point on it, but that’s Shakespeare. Name one other playwright from four, three, or two centuries ago with several different plays in regular production today. Geez. I guess someone from 24 centuries ago just wouldn’t count. Aristophanes. Re-interpreted by Sondheim recently. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/3lzSoDezyyY/hqdefault.jpg "The Frogs - Invocation And Instructions To The Audience") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lzSoDezyyY) And then put into action by the unsinkable Nathan Lane. Enjoy. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/929 "2011-02-26T15:33:05Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > And regarding you guys’ Shakespeare example: not to put too fine a point on it, but that’s Shakespeare. Name one other playwright from four, three, or two centuries ago with several different plays in regular production today. If the faceless executive committees who have brought us interminable new versions of Batman, Superman and whatever else ever come up with something one hundredth the worth of Shakespeare, I might be willing to reconsider my position. I think you’ve missed the point of the Shakespeare example. Any playwright works just as well, provided they’ve had at least two productions of one of their plays. You could use Shakespeare. You could use Wilde. You could use Sondheim. The point still stands, regardless of the antiquity of the play. > [@](#): > > For some, this argument should be self-evident. For others, it isn’t and there’s nothing I could ever do to sway you otherwise. Again, sadly, that’s apparently what movies these days does to you. Out of curiosity, how do you feel about Robin Hood, or King Arthur? I’m not talking about any particular movie, just the stories in general. Should TH White never have written _The Once and Future King_, because Mallory had already written about Arthur centuries earlier? At what point, during the centuries when Robin Hood stories were being told and retold, should people have just stopped talking about him, and come up with something new? ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/930 "2011-02-26T15:53:57Z")
Hell, Shakespeare himself was not above reimagining an existing work. Notable examples where he did this (not including his Histories, and the Tragedies based on historical events) include Romeo and Juliet and Othello. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/931 "2011-02-26T16:59:44Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Except for that TV pilot where the ghosts of Romeo and Juliet offer advice to the only person who can see them, a woman writing the romance column for a New York newspaper. > [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Really? Or is it a whoosh? A whoosh as far as an actual TV pilot, although there is a [Juliet Club](http://www.julietclub.com/index_en.asp) which answers thousands of letters written to the fictional character seeking personal advice. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2011, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/932 "2011-02-26T17:13:08Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > There’s not a literal connection. Some names and events don’t match up 100% between the two. Hell, in the movie, there’s only one suitor for Penny. It’s just a movie inspired by the poem, and some names and events are appropriated for whatever suits the Coen brothers’ purpose. I think in some ways it may have been inspired by Homer by way of James Joyce - in some parts of it seem to reproduce elements that Joyce introduced in _Ulysses_, such as the cyclops being represented by a racial bigot, and Penelope being courted by a single rival. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/933 "2011-02-28T00:18:53Z")
OK, I feel like a total moron now. Earlier I was thinking of another show that had a Cyborg, and then it dawned on me that the Borg from Star Trek TNG was just a shortening of the word Cyborg, which is what they are. :smack::smack::smack: ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/934 "2011-02-28T17:25:12Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > OK, I feel like a total moron now. Earlier I was thinking of another show that had a Cyborg, and then it dawned on me that the Borg from Star Trek TNG was just a shortening of the word Cyborg, which is what they are. :smack::smack::smack: Now \*that’s \*in line with the intent of this thread. On a related note: Don’t stop to think about droids from \*Star Wars \*until the bruises on your forehead heal. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/935 "2011-02-28T20:38:28Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Now \*that’s \*in line with the intent of this thread. > > On a related note: Don’t stop to think about droids from \*Star Wars \*until the bruises on your forehead heal. 😃 Thankfully I’m smart enough to have realized that droid is short for android. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/936 "2011-02-28T20:48:02Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > 😃 Thankfully I’m smart enough to have realized that droid is short for android. Of course, technically and etymologically, at least 1/4 of the droids we see in the Star Wars films aren’t really “androids” (_andro-_, Greek for man, so android is a man-shaped robot). R2-D2, for example. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/937 "2011-02-28T20:55:11Z")
> [@](#): > > Of course, technically and etymologically, at least 1/4 of the droids we see in the Star Wars films aren’t really “androids” (andro-, Greek for man, so android is a man-shaped robot). R2-D2, for example. As I’ve noted before, common use in SF and comics (from about the 1930s until Star Wars) was for “Android” to refer to a non-metallic artificial humanoid construct, generally biological. It’s mostly the doing of Edmund Hamilton, who drew the distinction and used it in his "Captain Future’ stories and his DC comics. This was the common usage of my youth, and stayed that way until Lucas used “droids” for his robots in the first _Star Wars_ film. (He called them “robots” once in that film, too. The only SW film to use the term). I suspect he was influenced by the film _Silent Running_, which used “drones” for its robots. But now “androids” and “droids” refer to all kinds of robots. And, interestingly, Karel Capek’s _R.U.R._, which introduced the term “robots”, was about biological constructs, which woulda been “Androids” under Hamilton’s protocol. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/938 "2011-02-28T21:01:27Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > As I’ve noted before, common use in SF and comics (from about the 1930s until Star Wars) was for “Android” to refer to a non-metallic artificial humanoid construct, generally biological. It’s mostly the doing of Edmund Hamilton, who drew the distinction and used it in his "Captain Future’ stories and his DC comics. This was the common usage of my youth, and stayed that way until Lucas used “droids” for his robots in the first _Star Wars_ film. (He called them “robots” once in that film, too. The only SW film to use the term). > > I suspect he was influenced by the film _Silent Running_, which used “drones” for its robots. But now “androids” and “droids” refer to all kinds of robots. > > And, interestingly, Karel Capek’s _R.U.R._, which introduced the term “robots”, was about biological constructs, which woulda been “Androids” under Hamilton’s protocol. Theoretically, you could assume that Lucas shortened it to “droid” for exactly the reason that they weren’t all humanoid. If you were feeling generous toward Lucas. It is interesting that “cyborg” has retained it’s specialized definition (even within the Star Wars franchise…Lobot (Lando’s majordomo in Cloud City) is referred to as a cyborg, because that headset thing is actually a computer interface that’s wired into his brain), but “android” has shifted. I still think that the full word “android” has more of a connotation of at least semi-biological, but the shortened form is pretty much completely limited to Star Wars universe robotics. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/939 "2011-02-28T21:05:36Z")
Limited to the \*Star Wars \*universe, IIRC, by a fiercely protected Lucasfilm trademark. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/940 "2011-02-28T21:12:26Z")
I hope none of your heads explode thinking about the Android phone :p. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=46) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=48)