# Obvious things about a creative work you realize after the millionth time (OPEN SPOILERS POSSIBLE) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 24, 2009, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117 "2009-07-24T13:20:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 56
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1101 "2011-07-10T20:26:22Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > Forgive me if someone’s mentioned this already. I did search, but didn’t see any mention. > > This thought occurred to me just this morning: in the Potterverse, why does the Wizarding World celebrate Christmas? > > Probably because (even if Rowling couldn’t come right out and say it) Jesus was a wizard. Biblical scholar Morton Smith (now deceased) has a book out called **Jesus the Magician** , in which he compiles evidence from ancient sources that some people did view Jesus as a magician. > **[Jesus the Magician: Charlatan or Son of God?: Smith, Morton: 9781569751558:...](https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Magician-Charlatan-Son-God/dp/1569751552)** > > Jesus the Magician: Charlatan or Son of God? \[Smith, Morton\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. Jesus the Magician: Charlatan or Son of God? > **[Jesus the Magician](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_the_Magician)** > > Jesus the Magician is a 1978 book by Morton Smith arguing that the historical Jesus was a magician who "sprang from a Galilean strain of Semitic paganism" (p. 68). > The idea that Jesus was a magician did not originate with Morton Smith. It was previously voiced by the philosopher and critic Celsus (The True Word c. 200 CE) as we know from the rebuttal authored by the Christian apologist/scholar Origen: "It was by magic that he was able to do the miracles" (Contra Celsum 1.6). Hans Dieter Betz (19... ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1102 "2011-07-10T20:44:11Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > While it may seem odd to suggest that a culture would celebrate the birth of a religious or historic figure who isn’t important to them, this is basically the way Christmas is celebrated in Japan. I used to live in Japan, and it was kind of weird to go shopping and see Christmas decorations and hear the Beatles singing “Christmas Time is Here Again” when this holiday is of no religious significance to the vast majority of the Japanese population (Japan is _maybe_ 1% Christian) and has no traditional cultural significance there either. Kids get a present from Santa, and adults may go to a party or out on a date kind of like for New Year’s Eve in the US, and that’s about it. I, personally, don’t give a wet slap about Jesus. Not even a little bit. That being said, I do celebrate Christmas. Hell, I’ve had Jewish friends that I exchanged gifts with regularly. For me, Christmas in America stopped being a religious holiday a long, long time ago. And I know I’m not the only one who thinks that. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1103 "2011-07-10T20:54:34Z")
[The Amazing Jesus](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTzXJMU1sLc) ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1104 "2011-07-10T21:47:49Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > While we’re on sports logos, the one that always got me was the [old Expos logo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Montreal_Expos_logo.png). To me, it looked like “elb” but I guess it’s supposed to just be “eb” for Expos Baseball. I always just figured “elb” must be French for something important. The thing I never noticed until it was pointed out is that the complete logo forms an ‘M’ for Montreal. To me it looks like two penises (with scrotums) back-to-back. ---
**Author:** ![DxZero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DxZero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DxZero)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1105 "2011-07-10T22:03:06Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > To me it looks like two penises (with scrotums) back-to-back. They were called the Expos(e) after all. Its right there in the team name. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1106 "2011-07-10T23:14:06Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > I, personally, don’t give a wet slap about Jesus. Not even a little bit. That being said, I do celebrate Christmas. Hell, I’ve had Jewish friends that I exchanged gifts with regularly. It seems like you’re trying to contradict me here, but I don’t know what I posted that you actually disagree with or what your point is. > [@](#): > > For me, Christmas in America stopped being a religious holiday a long, long time ago. And I know I’m not the only one who thinks that. You’re certainly not the only one, but not _everyone_ in the US feels that Christmas has zero religious significance. The holiday does also carry some cultural weight for purely traditional reasons. My point was that there is at least one real-world example of a culture that observes Christmas with parties and gift-giving even though the holiday is of no cultural, historic, or religious significance to the vast majority of the population. Christmas didn’t \*stop \*being a religious holiday in Japan, because it was never widely observed as a religious holiday at all. We’re told so little about wizard Christmas in the _Harry Potter_ series that I can see at least three plausible explanations for why wizards celebrate the day: 1. Jesus Christ is an important religious figure to wizards, or at least was in the past. Christmas is a traditional, semi-religious holiday. It may have started out as entirely religious, but that does not seem to be the case now. Non-Christian or only nominally Christian wizards probably participate in Christmas parties and gift-giving. 2. Jesus Christ is or was an important historic figure to wizards, perhaps comparable to Martin Luther King, Jr. in the US. Christmas is a traditional, secular holiday. 3. Jesus Christ has never been a figure of any particular importance to wizards. (Pureblood wizards, at least – some Muggle-borns raised in Christian households may fall under #1 above.) Christmas is a relatively recent, secular holiday that was introduced to wizard culture by Muggle-born wizard children. This happened some time after Christmas started to be observed as more a family holiday than a religious one in the West, so probably no earlier than the mid 19th century. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1107 "2011-07-10T23:24:37Z")
1. J. K. Rowling didn’t care about the consistency of wizard society at all. She never bothered to think through the question of the ways that it differs from muggle British society. She just put anything into the books that felt offhand right to her. ---
**Author:** ![maggenpye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@maggenpye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maggenpye)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1108 "2011-07-10T23:30:33Z")
Or 4) Christmas is a mid-winter festival that pre-dates christianity? The religion was tacked on to an existing festival. There’s a good agrument to be made that since spells are in some form of latin, wizarding goes back to at least Roman times and they could trace their festivals back to the source, while muggle influences would bring across the modern trappings of Santa etc. Or what \*\*WW \*\*said. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1109 "2011-07-10T23:35:50Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > 1. J. K. Rowling didn’t care about the consistency of wizard society at all. She never bothered to think through the question of the ways that it differs from muggle British society. She just put anything into the books that felt offhand right to her. Isn’t Christmas in the UK not such a big deal? I seem to remember some UK posters on the SDMB complaining about how retailers in the UK are forcefully trying to make Christmas as big a deal there as it is in the USA. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1110 "2011-07-10T23:44:34Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > This thought occurred to me just this morning: in the Potterverse, why does the Wizarding World celebrate Christmas? > > Probably because (even if Rowling couldn’t come right out and say it) Jesus was a wizard. Nah, there’s [No Such Thing As Wizard Jesus](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoSuchThingAsWizardJesus). ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1111 "2011-07-10T23:59:37Z")
As far as I know, Rowling never gives us any reason to believe that the wizard world had any special knowledge about the existence or nature of Jesus, or of God, that was unavailable to muggle society. > [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > 1. J. K. Rowling didn’t care about the consistency of wizard society at all. She never bothered to think through the question of the ways that it differs from muggle British society. She just put anything into the books that felt offhand right to her. Right. Rowling’s world is a [Fantasy Kitchen Sink](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FantasyKitchenSink), and I don’t think she carefully planned out all the historical, religious, and cultural details of her world and how they all fit together. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1112 "2011-07-11T00:20:06Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Isn’t Christmas in the UK not such a big deal? I seem to remember some UK posters on the SDMB complaining about how retailers in the UK are forcefully trying to make Christmas as big a deal there as it is in the USA. No, it’s a pretty big deal. I mean, even in Narnia, they mention that it is always winter…but never Christmas and that was nearly 60 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1113 "2011-07-11T01:05:37Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > No, it’s a pretty big deal. I mean, even in Narnia, they mention that it is always winter…but never Christmas and that was nearly 60 years ago. I don’t think that Narnia would really count - I mean, those books are about as Christ-heavy as Left Behind books… -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1114 "2011-07-11T01:32:57Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Biblical scholar Morton Smith (now deceased) has a book out called **Jesus the Magician** , in which he compiles evidence from ancient sources that some people did view Jesus as a magician. But [not one who would perform on command](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9ALiADrJro). ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1115 "2011-07-11T02:07:53Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > I don’t think that Narnia would really count - I mean, those books are about as Christ-heavy as Left Behind books… > > -Joe Well, yeah, but even personally, I’ve seen that Christmas is a big deal in the UK. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1116 "2011-07-11T03:16:40Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > No, it’s a pretty big deal. I mean, even in Narnia, they mention that it is always winter…but never Christmas and that was nearly 60 years ago. Why would they have Christmas? Shouldn’t they celebrate Aslanmas instead? ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1117 "2011-07-11T04:01:33Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Why would they have Christmas? Shouldn’t they celebrate Aslanmas instead? I think the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe was the most kiddie-oriented of the series (and was published first, wasn’t it?) Sort of analogous to The Hobbit vs. LOTR. So maybe some inconsistencies can be overlooked. Even so, though, Narnia’s “Adam” was a Victorian London cabbie named Frank, so even within the Narnia universe one can imagine some cultural crossover from our world. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1118 "2011-07-11T05:55:21Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > While we’re on sports logos, the one that always got me was the [old Expos logo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Montreal_Expos_logo.png). To me, it looked like “elb” but I guess it’s supposed to just be “eb” for Expos Baseball. I always just figured “elb” must be French for something important. The thing I never noticed until it was pointed out is that the complete logo forms an ‘M’ for Montreal. That’s one of the worst logos I’ve ever seen. Almost as bad as the [2012 Olympics logo](http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/artblog/2007/jun/05/howlisasimpsontooktheolym). ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1119 "2011-07-11T12:39:15Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nah, there’s [No Such Thing As Wizard Jesus](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoSuchThingAsWizardJesus). I can’t believe I’ve not run across that one before. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1120 "2011-07-11T14:20:32Z")
Hey! I just realized that the Dominos Pizza logo is a domino. Damn, I’m slow. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=55) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=57)