# Obvious things about a creative work you realize after the millionth time (OPEN SPOILERS POSSIBLE) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 24, 2009, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117 "2009-07-24T13:20:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 57
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1121 "2011-07-11T18:58:13Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > I don’t think that Narnia would really count - I mean, those books are about as Christ-heavy as Left Behind books… > > -Joe Pre-dating Narnia, there was “A Christmas Carol”. Remember that one? If we can only base Christmas’s impact on England via fiction, then Hercule Poirot also remarks at one point that he doesn’t understand the English obsession with the holiday. He says that in Belgium they really only celebrated New Year’s. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1122 "2011-07-11T19:27:18Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > This thought occurred to me just this morning: in the Potterverse, why does the Wizarding World celebrate Christmas? […] Probably because (even if Rowling couldn’t come right out and say it) Jesus was a wizard. There’s exactly zero evidence for that in the books. It’s as accurate as saying that an invisible, intangible dragon lives in my parking structure. Absence of concrete disproof isn’t the same thing as proof. 1.) Lots of people celebrate Christmas secularly. As \*\*Lamia \*\*specified, Japan is a classic example of this. 2.) The wizarding world of Harry Potter is in no way incompatible with Christianity. It’s entirely possible that the characters are wizards who also happen to be vaguely Christian, at least in name, or who don’t practice the religion but celebrate the secularized holidays. You know–just like the millions of people in the real world who don’t go to church every week but who still celebrate Christmas with their family and friends. 3.) There is no mention of Jesus anywhere in any of the books. If Rowling wanted to make the point that Jesus was a historical figure who was a wizard, she would have done so. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1123 "2011-07-11T20:13:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Pre-dating Narnia, there was “A Christmas Carol”. Remember that one? Pre-dating _A Chrstmas Carol_ there were the “Christmas” entries in Washington Irving’s _The Sketch Book of Geoffrey Crayon_, which is credited with starting the “revival of Christmas” mania. Dickens undoubtedly read it, and was inspired by it. The thing is, this was a series of essays about Christmas by an American writer ---- _living in England_, and describing a traditional English Christmas. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1124 "2011-07-11T20:42:04Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > If Rowling wanted to make the point that Jesus was a historical figure who was a wizard, she would have done so. Followup: it is certainly not in contradiction to the books to choose to believe that (in the world of Harry Potter) Jesus was a wizard. However, there is no direct evidence for it, and it \*absolutely \*does not qualify as an “obvious thing about a creative work.” ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1125 "2011-07-11T21:00:41Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > Probably because (even if Rowling couldn’t come right out and say it) Jesus was a wizard. I agree with others, there is zero evidence for this. There is\* nothing\* about christmas in the Potterverse that does not mirror christmas in conventional UK society. There is no mention of Jesus at all that I can recall. Christmas is a social convention strongly associated for kids with getting presents. Of course she’s going to include that in a set of stories for kids. > [@Merijeek](#): > > Isn’t Christmas in the UK not such a big deal? I seem to remember some UK posters on the SDMB complaining about how retailers in the UK are forcefully trying to make Christmas as big a deal there as it is in the USA. You’d have a much better case arguing that the UK doesn’t make as big a deal as the US about the Fourth of July. 😉 I think what is being reacted to is not that Christmas isn’t an important and popular celebration, but rather some of the commercialism that is so strong in the US. A large part of the feel of Christmas here is about _shopping for presents_, which is much different than the giving of presents or the enjoyment of being with family or celebrating winter or any of a dozen other things associated with the holiday. Christmas is the season where most retailers make a large percentage of their annual sales. No, I don’t have any cites. But I can certainly see why UK retailers would want to cash in on the christmas sales hype that goes on in the US. But that’s much different than making a big deal about christmas. And I can see why members from the UK would be off-put by the retailers trying to up the hype. Even embedded in it as I am, it’s still tiresome. Is anybody else here as turned off by “Black Friday” as I am? (“Black Friday” - so called because it is the day when retailers go into the black for the year - right? Or because it’s such a horrendous day to be out shopping, what with all the huge sales extravaganzas starting at midnight or 2 am or whatever and the mega crowds going nutso to be the first in the doors and whatnot. No, I don’t really need to be trapped in a riot trying to get in the doors of Best Buy\*. Thanks, I’ll sleep late and eat leftover turkey and take a nap and probably play with my nephew.) * * * \*Can’t remember which store it was that had people trampled trying to get in. Maybe it was Target or Wal-Mart. Doesn’t matter, I still don’t need to be there. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1126 "2011-07-11T21:01:49Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > it \*absolutely \*does not qualify as an “obvious thing about a creative work.” And I’m sure from the intensity of your reaction to it that over the last 23 pages of posts, this is the first post that doesn’t. Please accept my humble apologies for that. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1127 "2011-07-11T21:09:07Z")
That was actually intended to be a softening post–to clarify that while I don’t think it fits under the subject of this thread, I also don’t think that the books go so far as to argue \*against \*such an idea. But if you’d prefer to think I’m just being a bitch, by all means, go for it. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1128 "2011-07-11T22:48:12Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > (“Black Friday” - so called because it is the day when retailers go into the black for the year - right? Or because it’s such a horrendous day to be out shopping, what with all the huge sales extravaganzas starting at midnight or 2 am or whatever and the mega crowds going nutso to be the first in the doors and whatnot. Well, there’s also the way residential burglaries spike on that day, as the burglars know it’s a good day for houses with “nobody home”. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1129 "2011-07-11T22:58:51Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > I don’t think that Narnia would really count - I mean, those books are about as Christ-heavy as Left Behind books… Please refrain from mentioning Left Behind books on the same page as Real Books. Thank you. Oh, I checked and you CAN mention them in a post adjacent to a Twilight book if you must. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1130 "2011-07-12T01:39:53Z")
> [@Mister\_Rik](#): > > Well, there’s also the way residential burglaries spike on that day, as the burglars know it’s a good day for houses with “nobody home”. But as Irishman pointed out, there are millions of people who stay home that day to avoid the crowds at stores. A smart burglar knows that the best time to rob houses is Christmas Day. Lots of expensive items, still in their boxes, get handed out in the morning. And then the entire family goes to somebody else’s house for a prolonged dinner. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1131 "2011-07-12T04:39:20Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But as Irishman pointed out, there are millions of people who stay home that day to avoid the crowds at stores. > > A smart burglar knows that the best time to rob houses is Christmas Day. Lots of expensive items, still in their boxes, get handed out in the morning. And then the entire family goes to somebody else’s house for a prolonged dinner. I tried that one year, but it turned out this one really annoying kid got left at home, and, wouldn’t you know it, kid was a booby-trap whiz. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1132 "2011-07-12T05:20:32Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But as Irishman pointed out, there are millions of people who stay home that day to avoid the crowds at stores. > > A smart burglar knows that the best time to rob houses is Christmas Day. Lots of expensive items, still in their boxes, get handed out in the morning. And then the entire family goes to somebody else’s house for a prolonged dinner. Eh, I was just quoting my dad, the cop. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1133 "2011-07-12T12:12:20Z")
> [@digs](#): > > Please refrain from mentioning Left Behind books on the same page as Real Books. > > Thank you. > Oh, I checked and you CAN mention them in a post adjacent to a Twilight book if you must. Mercedes Aleeshia Chalmers got Left Behind because Jesus caught her reading Twilight Books? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1134 "2011-07-12T14:11:43Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But as Irishman pointed out, there are millions of people who stay home that day to avoid the crowds at stores. > > A smart burglar knows that the best time to rob houses is Christmas Day. Lots of expensive items, still in their boxes, get handed out in the morning. And then the entire family goes to somebody else’s house for a prolonged dinner. Since when? Christmas to me is the day I got trapped in front of John Wayne movies all day because you couldn’t leave the damned house! (Now I am a grownup and I do Christmas Eve with the folks and then sleep all Christmas day.) ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1135 "2011-07-12T15:03:53Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > A smart burglar knows that the best time to rob houses is Christmas Day. I think you mean Christmas Eve. And yes, that happened to my family once. Came back to Dad’s house from dinner at his parents’ place, saw the TV cabinet was pulled away from the wall, and backed the hell out of there. Not the most fun ever. ---
**Author:** ![ministryman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@ministryman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ministryman)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1136 "2011-07-19T12:49:06Z")
[quote=“Irishman, post:1125, topic:504117”] I agree with others, there is zero evidence for this. There is\* nothing\* about christmas in the Potterverse that does not mirror christmas in conventional UK society. There is no mention of Jesus at all that I can recall. Christmas is a social convention strongly associated for kids with getting presents. Of course she’s going to include that in a set of stories for kids. You’d have a much better case arguing that the UK doesn’t make as big a deal as the US about the Fourth of July. 😉 I hear the UK calls the 4th of July “Thanksgiving” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1137 "2011-07-19T15:07:43Z")
The problem with robbing houses on Christmas Eve is that the presents usually haven’t been handed out yet. They’re wrapped up in paper and hidden in closets. On Christmas itself, everything’s been brought out into the open and revealed. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1138 "2011-07-19T15:13:11Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The problem with robbing houses on Christmas Eve is that the presents usually haven’t been handed out yet. They’re wrapped up in paper and hidden in closets. On Christmas itself, everything’s been brought out into the open and revealed. Not in countries like Mexico\*, where Xmas _eve_ is the gift-opening time. (\*what “like” means in this context, I have no idea. Catholic-dominated, perhaps?) ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_T-Cups](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sir\_T-Cups](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_T-Cups)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1139 "2011-07-19T15:16:00Z")
> [@digs](#): > > I tried that one year, but it turned out this one really annoying kid got left at home, and, wouldn’t you know it, kid was a booby-trap whiz. In case you’re still reading this thread…I caught this and laughed. Well played. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1140 "2011-07-19T15:59:05Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > And I can see why members from the UK would be off-put by the retailers trying to up the hype. Even embedded in it as I am, it’s still tiresome. Is anybody else here as turned off by “Black Friday” as I am? The UK’s “Christmas #1” phenomenon makes me believe that commercialism at Christmastime is alive and well across the Atlantic. > **[List of UK singles chart Christmas number ones](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christmas_number_one_singles_%28UK%29)** > > In the United Kingdom, Christmas number ones are singles that top the UK singles chart in the week in which Christmas Day falls. The singles have often been novelty songs, charity songs or songs with a Christmas theme. Historically, the volume of record sales in the UK has peaked at Christmas. > Christmas number-one singles have often been the best-selling song of the year, though in recent years they have been released by reality television contestants and charity efforts. The Christmas numbe... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=56) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=58)