# Obvious things about a creative work you realize after the millionth time (OPEN SPOILERS POSSIBLE) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 24, 2009, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117 "2009-07-24T13:20:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 97
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1921 "2014-08-10T08:36:23Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > BTW, I remember when Alaska and Hawaii joined the Union in '59. It was a big deal at the time. I had the _ **Dennis the Menace in Hawaii** _ special edition comic when I was in kindergarten or first grade ('60–'61). I had that comic too! It was probably my introduction to Hawaii. During our last visit to Hawaii, I came across a copy in a comic-book store on Kauai. It was in mint condition and selling for something like $25, IIRC. I passed on it, but now I wish I had gone ahead and bought it. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1922 "2014-08-10T10:56:26Z")
I have been aware for a while of the symbolism of oranges in The Godfather - basically, if you see an orange, someone’s about to die. But it was only just recently that I learned that the Mafia got its start in a citrus-growing region of Italy. Controlling the orange market is how it got going. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1923 "2014-08-10T16:53:43Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > If you look at movies from the '30s and '40s, Hawaii popped up fairly often as an exotic locale (hell, Charlie Chan, created in 1919, was from Honolulu). I suspect it became embedded in the American consciousness (along with Cuba, Puerto Rico, and the Philippines) after it became a territory in 1898; certainly after James Dole launched his pineapple cannery in the early part of the 20th century, and the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor in '41. Hawaiian music was immensely popular and influential in the US from the 1910s on too. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1924 "2014-08-10T17:32:54Z")
> [@Mince](#): > > On _The Simpsons_ episode “Marge vs. the Monorail,” at a town meeting called to determine how to spend the money given to them when Mr. Burns was fined for dumping toxic waste in a park, A character named, “Mr. Snrub” stood and suggested they invest the money in the power plant. It took many viewing before I recognized that “Snrub” is “Burns” reversed. Not sure why I suddenly recognized it after a dozen misses. …but you did get that it was Burns in a fake mustache, right? :dubious: 😉 ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1925 "2014-08-10T17:54:26Z")
On the Brown Eyed Girl discussion - this from Wikipedia. _"Originally titled “Brown-Skinned Girl”, Morrison changed it to “Brown Eyed Girl” when he recorded it. Morrison remarked on the original title: “That was just a mistake. It was a kind of Jamaican song. Calypso. It just slipped my mind. I changed the title.”[12] “After we’d recorded it, I looked at the tape box and didn’t even notice that I’d changed the title. I looked at the box where I’d lain it down with my guitar and it said ‘Brown Eyed Girl’ on the tape box. It’s just one of those things that happen.”[13] It has also been stated that the song was about an inter-racial relationship and Morrison changed the title to “make it more palatable to radio stations.”_ ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1926 "2014-08-10T18:02:41Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > This was brought to my attention by one of Mr. Plinkett’s reviews on Red Letter Media of the Star Trek movies. > > In one movie, Picard receives a gift, a sculpture, and he is literally in tears rhapsodizing on how unique and valuable the is to him. > > In a later movie there’s been a battle, and Picard is rummaging through the debris in his office, presumably looking for salvageable stuff. He picks up the same sculpture, looks at it for about half a second and then tosses it back into the trash on the floor. Did you never tell an aunt/elderly relative how wonderful was the ornament she gave you for Christmas - only to consign it to a remote cupboard when she left? ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1927 "2014-08-10T18:04:16Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I was just reading _Jet Age: The Comet, the 707, and the Race to Shrink the World_ by Sam Howe Verhovek and he pointed out that travel to Hawaii exploded with the first commercial jet flights to the islands in 1959. Jets reduced the travel time between Hawaii and the continental United States from five days to five hours. Tourism to Hawaii increased tenfold within a decade. Judging from the opening shots of the old _ **Five-O** _ series, the 707 was practically Hawaii’s State Bird. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1928 "2014-08-10T21:23:30Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Did you never tell an aunt/elderly relative how wonderful was the ornament she gave you for Christmas - only to consign it to a remote cupboard when she left? Carl Giles cartoon, where dad is about to smash the garden gnome that Aunty has given him for Christmas. He’s got the hammer poised, when Aunty looks back in through the door. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1929 "2014-08-12T08:41:51Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > …but you did get that it was Burns in a fake mustache, right? :dubious: > > 😉 Right, which makes my miss(es) even more dubious. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1930 "2014-08-21T17:37:43Z")
The third movement (“La Paix”) in Haendel’s _ **Music for the Royal Fireworks** _ contains echoes of _Liliburlero_, the signature tune of the BBC and an often-heard British Army march (reference _ **Barry Lyndon** _). ---
**Author:** ![vontsira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/51bf81/32.png) [@vontsira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vontsira)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1931 "2014-08-22T00:59:36Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > The third movement (“La Paix”) in Haendel’s _ **Music for the Royal Fireworks** _ contains echoes of _Liliburlero_, the signature tune of the BBC and an often-heard British Army march (reference _ **Barry Lyndon** _). Something of a trivia-type spin-off: _Liliburlero_, with its catchy tune, was long a “marching song” of the Protestant side, in the Protestant-versus-Catholic conflicts in Britain over the past few centuries. It originated, I gather, in one of the episodes in Ireland in the 17th century, during which this long-running wrangle was at shooting-war status; and in which a Protestant victory was gained, in the north of Ireland. The song was made up by the victors, in celebration. Its seemingly-nonsense refrain – _Liliburlero, Bullenala_ – is in fact a slightly-distorted rendering of a phrase in the Irish language meaning “The Lily was triumphant – we won the day”. The Lily concerned, being the Orange-lily flower, a symbol of Northern Irish Protestantism. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1932 "2014-08-22T18:11:10Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > In _Groundhog Day_, after Bill Murray’s character bottoms out and goes through the suicide montage, there’s a scene where he’s in the diner, and convinces Andie McDowell that he’s been living the same day over and over for, at this point, must by hundreds or thousands of times, by demonstrating his in-depth knowledge of every single person in the diner - and by implication, the entire town. At the end of that day, McDowell convinces him to use his situation to make himself a better person. He starts off the next day by bringing coffee and donuts to the Groundhog celebration for Andie McDowell and Chris Elliot, and helping carry the camera bags. As he walks off camera, he puts his arm around Chris Elliot’s shoulder, and says something like, “We never talk. Do you have kids?” > > All those times he’s gone through that day, almost certainly years worth, and this is the first time, ever, he’s talked to his cameraman. 😃 OMG! Thank you for this! Can’t believe I never picked up on this during the 1000’s of times I watched this. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1933 "2014-09-02T03:58:39Z")
I think I got two in one day. 1. Client’s son: Maybe Miss Rilch knows. What was the school that Viktor Krum went to? Me: Durmstrang. CS: Durmstrang, right, thank you. Me, thinking: Durmstrang. Sturm und Drang…OMG. 2. Was reading something wherein a teen guy said he did not want to be a carbon copy of his father. Made me think of Denzel Washington’s film debut, [Carbon Copy](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082138/). George Segal finds out he has a teenage son who looks like Denzel Washington. OMG. He’s a copy of his father, except he has, um, extra carbon. Heh. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1934 "2014-09-02T08:04:48Z")
I have probably seen Madagascar 2 dozens of times, not by choice. But last night when my kid was watching it, in the scene where King Julian thinks he can solve the water shortage by sacrificing someone to the volcano god, he asks for a volunteer and says “perhaps someone who had never experienced love?”. :smack:This is the FIRST time I realized he was asking for a VIRGIN, in kid movie friendly language. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1935 "2014-09-02T09:56:38Z")
> [@notquitekarpov](#): > > Well not strictly speaking, since AUDI is just an acronym for **A** uto **U** nion **D** eutsche **I** ndustrie. > > So your AUDI is an indirect descendent of those silver Auto Union racing cars so beloved of Hitler in the 1930’s… Not true to the best of my knowledge. Audi the company pre-dates Auto-Union and comes from a latinised version of the founders name (Horch meaning “listen/hear” in German, Audi mean “listen” in latin) The acronym above is possibly a “[backronym](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backronym)” ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1936 "2014-09-02T15:45:02Z")
I haven’t seen it all that many times(and I don’t know if the thread has already covered this), but a recent re-viewing of Ocean’s 11 (the new one) threw up a large number of plot holes that I had missed before, and like to think that I’m usually good at catching stupidity in movies. Why the whole story line with the con man Saul trying to get the briefcase into the vault? If you’re going to send in an entire large container with a man stuffed inside it anyway, why not send the plastic explosive in with him, instead of increasing the ways that you can fail, and increasing the ways Benedict can find his way back to you? What’s this sudden secret path from some generator room that bypasses all security measures and ends up in the elevator? Again, if you know something like that exists, why bother with all the face to face business that lets you get Benedict’s codes? You’re just giving him ways to catch you They don’t take anything with them when they go into the vault, so where did those bags worth of hooker flyers come from? ---
**Author:** ![Heropsychodreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@Heropsychodreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heropsychodreamer)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1937 "2014-09-02T16:04:12Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Why the whole story line with the con man Saul trying to get the briefcase into the vault? If you’re going to send in an entire large container with a man stuffed inside it anyway, why not send the plastic explosive in with him, instead of increasing the ways that you can fail, and increasing the ways Benedict can find his way back to you? > > What’s this sudden secret path from some generator room that bypasses all security measures and ends up in the elevator? Again, if you know something like that exists, why bother with all the face to face business that lets you get Benedict’s codes? You’re just giving him ways to catch you > > They don’t take anything with them when they go into the vault, so where did those bags worth of hooker flyers come from? Probably flimsy explanations, but here is what I got: Regarding Saul, they needed him to fake the heart attack to turn everyone’s attention away from the TV’s so they can flip from live to their recording of the vault. This was the best way to get him into the security room - to watch his briefcase. Danny got into the elevator shaft because Benedict wanted him roughed up in that secret room, but how would Linus get into that room? Yeah, this is a big stretch. As far as the flier, I think this is a plot hole, although the Swat team (which is actually the rest of the gang) could have taken them down there disguised as SWAT gear/bags. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1938 "2014-09-02T16:09:07Z")
> [@Heropsychodreamer](#): > > Probably flimsy explanations, but here is what I got: > > Regarding Saul, they needed him to fake the heart attack to turn everyone’s attention away from the TV’s so they can flip from live to their recording of the vault. This was the best way to get him into the security room - to watch his briefcase. > > Danny got into the elevator shaft because Benedict wanted him roughed up in that secret room, but how would Linus get into that room? Yeah, this is a big stretch. If they only wanted to draw attention away from the elevator so they could get Linus in without being noticed, that’s all the more reason to not have either the briefcase or Linus, since they could get at least one person into the elevator shaft anyway, and there’s nothing in the plan that requires two people down there, or the briefcase. > [@](#): > > As far as the flier, I think this is a plot hole, although the Swat team could have gotten them down there. The flyers left the building before the SWAT team got there. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1939 "2014-09-02T16:15:56Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Why the whole story line with the con man Saul trying to get the briefcase into the vault? If you’re going to send in an entire large container with a man stuffed inside it anyway, why not send the plastic explosive in with him, instead of increasing the ways that you can fail, and increasing the ways Benedict can find his way back to you? Saul and the briefcase were needed anyway for the timing of the heist to work. With Mr. Zerga (Saul) watching on the monitors, Benedict’s men take the cart down right away instead of waiting around. Then he fakes the heart attack as a distraction. (Is that when they switch the video inside the elevator to a recording so they don’t see Linus?) Besides that, there’s not much room in the cart with Yen. He’s got an oxygen bottle that’s only good for 30 minutes. I suppose they could have just left a hole in the cart somewhere so it wouldn’t be airtight, then carry the explosives instead of the oxygen. They’d still have to make sure that cart wasn’t delayed. Livingston waits until Yen is in place to trigger the rest of the heist. > [@](#): > > What’s this sudden secret path from some generator room that bypasses all security measures and ends up in the elevator? Again, if you know something like that exists, why bother with all the face to face business that lets you get Benedict’s codes? You’re just giving him ways to catch you You mean the one Danny takes to meet Linus in the elevator shaft? They probably needed the security codes anyway. There’s the big vault door that they blow up, but there’s also an outer rotating door. They needed to open that somehow, too. > [@](#): > > They don’t take anything with them when they go into the vault, so where did those bags worth of hooker flyers come from? Yeah, I noticed that one, too. I think Soderbergh even admits it in the director’s commentary. The thing I noticed (also after several viewings) is about the name inlaid in the floor of the vault; that’s how Benedict is able to figure out that the pictures he was seeing on his monitors were from a duplicate vault. Firstly, Danny and the rest had hacked into the security system. They would have seen the installers doing the work and could have made the same alterations in their phony vault. But really, why would Benedict bother with that. We’re told that this is the most highly guarded, super secret vault they could possible create. The security system rivals that of most nuclear facilities. Absolutely no one is allowed in there except Benedict himself, the most trusted guards whose access codes are changed twice a day, and some guys who did some work on the floor. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117/1940 "2014-09-02T16:19:35Z")
As regards _Ocean’s Eleven_, by the way, practically none of this matters. That’s what’s so fucking awesome about that movie; it’s so much fun just watching them plan it all. By the end, it almost doesn’t matter if they get the money or not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=96) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/obvious-things-about-a-creative-work-you-realize-after-the-millionth-time-open-spoilers-possible/504117.md?page=98)