Occasional Use of Ambien

I can understand why you might think those variables are worth a try, though I’m going to try to encourage you to re-think that.

First, let’s tackle the dose doubling. From our earlier mean plasma drug levels example, we know that the mean of a 10mg dose is ~120 ng/ml. Zolpidem (Ambien) follows what we call linear dosing kinetics, at least up to 20mg, which is a fancy way of saying if you double or triple the dose you give to someone you roughly double or triple the maximum concentration. If you were to take 15mg, this means you’d be increasing the mean by 1.5 times, so 180 ng/ml, and at 20mg, 2 times, so 240 ng/ml. This doesn’t actually buy you all that much extra time asleep under the drug’s influence, because the mean half-life is still 2.5 hours. If we do 20mg, you peak 1.5 hours in at 240 ng/ml, 2.5 hours later (4 hours post dose) you’re down to 120 ng/ml (same as if you had taken a single 10mg tablet), and go from there, meaning for taking 2 tablets, you roughly get an “extra” 2.5 hours of sleep over the 6-7 hours you got from a single tablet (in somewhat idealistic conditions, to be sure). Seems not so worth it, if you ask me, to get less than half the benefit from doubling the dose (this phenomenon where progressive increases in drug doses produce smaller and smaller benefits is not unusual for many drugs), especially since side effect risk goes up (being almost unrouseable in an emergency situation on a plane being one possibility).

Alcohol, of course is known to produce several actions, depending on the BAC levels you reach, with effects being stronger as the concentration is going up versus coming down, meaning that alcohol at, say, a BAC of 0.08 with the curve still rising is going to have more profound effects on mental function than the BAC of 0.08 with the curve going down (this is known as the Mellanby Effect). Taking your Ambien, especially at the higher doses you are considering, will likely coincide with rising/peaking ethanol levels, depending on how fast you drink, and the effects are at the very least likely to be additive if not somewhat multiplicative on each other. Alcohol, at a BAC of 0.08 has a concentration of 17.4 millimolar (~5 millimolar is all that is necessary for some degree of impairment to occur), on it’s own. Potentiate, whether additively or multiplicatively, with Ambien, and you run the risk of much greater disinhibition (talking loudly, expansively, aggressively) while blocking memory formation as, at sufficient doses, Alcohol enhances tonic GABA-A firing (via supersensitive GABA-A receptors containing an alpha-4 and delta unit in parts of the brain including the dentate gyrus of the hippocampus), while zolpidem enhances phasic or burst GABA firing at at GABA-A receptors located synaptically with an interfacing alpha-1 and gamma-2 unit, strongly believed to be involved in memory formation, among other things. Alcohol also enhances various potassium channels (which ultimately slows neuron firing down), voltage-gated calcium channels (involved in neurotransmitter release, both excitatory and inhibitory), and inhibits NMDA function all in doses which are well below fatal (NMDA being involved in synaptic long-term potention believed to be necessary for at least some memory formation). Point being, you’re now messing with a hell of a lot of brain circuitry with just two drugs, with no way to know (until computational modeling gets way better) just exactly what the results will be. Oh, and the combo can stop your breathing altogether.

The flipside is there are plenty of sleep drugs which appear to have different safety profiles which may not put you at risk for some of the effects mentioned in this thread. Given that insomnia is often the most refractory effect to medications in disorders like depression and anxiety, you might actually benefit from something like low-dose doxepin (a tricyclic antidepressant in high doses, but which has relatively pure anti-histaminic properties argued to be without anti-cholinergic properties at doses of 3-6mg at bedtime, with a short enough half-life to minimize next morning impairments, to the point that an author of Essential Psychopharmacology suggests tolerance may never develop to it’s effects (since it, unlike benadryl, lacks the aforementioned anticholinergic side effects at sedative doses). And while the low dose form is currently brand only (Silenor), a simple work around is to have the doctor write for doxepin 10mg/ml concentrate, and just use a 1 ml oral syringe to dose 0.3 to 0.6 ml (diluted in a small amount of beverage). A 4 ounce bottle costs roughly $27.99 and would last you over 200 days at 5mg (0.5 ml), without insurance. Likewise, really low dose mirtazapine (1/4 to 1/2 of a 7.5mg tablet) seems to produce the same effect, albeit with a much longer half-life. Then there’s trazodone, which, by combining certain effects (alpha-1 antagonism and anti-histaminic properties) may produce adequte sedation to last one through the night (though caution should be used in individuals on multiple anti-hypertensive agents or whose blood pressure runs normally low), and may serve as augmentative therapy for not-fully controlled depression.

tl;dr - Don’t let the side effect talk scare you too much. If you don’t want to try Ambien, Lunesta, Sonata, or any of the benzodiazepines, there are plenty of other options your prescriber can try to alleviate insomnia symptoms, including non-drug therapies such as cognitive behavior therapies.

Tramadol wouldn’t be my first choice for restless legs syndrome. Preferred options are currently the dopamine agonists (pramipexole, ropinirole, carbidopa/levodopa) or alpha-2-delta ligands (gabapentin and Lyrica) for chronic RLS, with tramadol probably being safer than other opioids, particularly in acute instances. Moreover, there is at least one case report that tramadol-withdrawal actually precipitated a bout of RLS–other reports for other opioids have also been observed (see here for the case report, and here for an abstract on current preferred treatment options). if your prescriber already tried the preferred options, of course, than yes, tramadol at 100mg once a day is probably preferable to a stronger agent like oxycodone.

Limiting one’s mobility on a long flight puts one in particular danger for the development of dangerous blood clots, especially if the patient in question is completely out of it and not getting up and moving around every few hours, as would be expected under sedative-hypnotics, particularly at higher doses, and/or in combination with ethanol. As callous as it may sound, a night or two of less than optimal sleep due to airplane travel generally sucking these days may be worth their own risks versus the risk of a memory impaired dis-inhibitory reaction with ambien alone, in high doses, or mixed with alcohol. Compression stockings may help (but are no guarantee) on the blood clot front, but at least you’ve been informed of (some of) the risks with what you are proposing. Ultimately, you are your own advocate and you have to make the choice for yourself.

Thanks you once again for your efforts!!! I was afraid that maybe my “new variables” post was a little too cute and you didn’t want to participate in what might become abuse.

Last night I did have wine with and after dinner…not that much. I did feel more of a buzz before falling asleep but I didn’t go to sleep any faster. I did get a full seven hours. In the morning I may have felt a bit more groggy but not too bad.

Now I’ve got to rethink one of the main reasons that I wanted to try it… to get some good sleep on the plane (rather than next to none which was likely without help). In the two nights I have left to experiment I may try to set an alarm,wake up a couple of times and move about.

I haven’t read this whole thread, but this is why my (now) wife doesn’t use Ambien any more.

Eh, believe me, I’ve come across quite a few stories of abuse in the 7 years I’ve been practicing pharmacy. Yours sounds more like misuse (use of a drug or drugs in strengths, routes of administration, or combinations for which they aren’t labeled, prescribed, or advised by your doctor or your regular pharmacist, usually for some effect many would consider “ok” if it was prescribed for that purpose–like say taking an anxiolytic to be used only for panic attacks to make you sleep unless a panic attack is what is keeping you from sleeping in the first place, or for a second panic attack on a day in which you’ve already used your allotted dose) than traditional views on abuse (generally taking a drug to experience some form of “socially unapproved” altered mental status, such as a euphoric state, a dissociative state, or the high of marijuana use, frequently through smoking, injection, or insufflated routes of administration).

As to your flight problem, some sleep is usually viewed as better than no sleep, so depending on the length of the flight you might not sleep the whole way with 6-7 hours, but combined with compression socks, you’re plausibly also not going to develop blood clots if you sleep that long, then safely get up (zolpidem can mess with balance) and move around. For other tips from the American Society of Hematology, see this link. You’ll note that avoiding alcohol is number one on the list. For the times you can’t sleep, can you bring a book/kindle/ipad to read?

Your wife’s story and countless others like it are why I’m a hard-ass when it comes to dispensing early fills (current corporate rule of thumb is 2 days of medicine or less left based on pickup date–which we track) of drugs like Ambien (and Lunesta, Xanax, Klonopin, Ativan, etc). It’s not that by themselves most people are going to misuse and then progress to abuse and addiction (some dependence, sure, that’s plausible), but because most people, being laymen and not very well trained on how these things work (pharmacokinetically, pharmacodynamically, how the body “normally” functions, the pathophysiology of the suspected disease state(s), etc) just don’t understand that they can have serious consequences with use, which is a major reason we control them. The better I get to know my patients and their experiences, the more able I am to give them wiggle room when it comes to early fills for vacations, suggestions for alternatives for undesired side effects, explanations for why they might be experiencing a side effect (thank you Essential Psychopharmacology), cost concerns, and try to go to bat for them with their doctor (who frequently are unreasonably recalcitrant to change, IMO).

I think I’ll try to snooze without. If I haven’t had any luck maybe I’ll take a half (5mg) with 4-5 hours to go in the flight.

Does a couple aspirin help as a preventative measure? I’ve looked at your link and a couple of others but don’t see any mention of aspirin to thin your blood.

The evidence for a single dose of aspirin is pretty much non-existent. The closest I could find (relatively quickly at any rate), is this Medscape article from 2002, estimating that if your risk of a DVT (Deep Vein Thrombosis) is 20 per 100,000 travelers per year, then you’d need to treat 17,000 people with aspirin to prevent one extra DVT. If you aren’t allergic to aspirin or it’s derivatives, not on any other medication which may interact with aspirin, have any disease states for which aspirin is either relatively or absolutely contraindicated or even just a poor choice, then it’s probably not gonna hurt you to take one. It just doesn’t look like it’ll help.

If any of the Doper doctors have any better data, hopefully they’ll present it.

The first time I smoked some weed, I had some very vivid dreams. But I also had a very satisfying sleep.

About half the people I have asked say it keeps them awake while the other half says it makes them sleepy.

Have you ever tried that? If so, what was the effect it had on you?

I take a low dose of amitriptyline (25mg) each night before bed for a nerve issue. One side effect is that I sleep like a baby and feel rested when I wake up. I normally don’t sleep well at all or more than 5 hours so it’s been a nice change to be able to sleep. (I’ve tried melatonin, ambien and lunesta in the past, but they all make me feel really wired and I sleep even worse with them than without them.)

Having read up on amitriptyline, I learned that it is indeed used for insomnia, but it’s an off label use. Primary use is as an anti-depressant.

Reporting back two months later…

I took a half on the flight and didn’t fall asleep at all. I learned that next time I will invest in a neck pillow and not count on the head rest working properly.

I took a full 10 mg each night throughout the trip with very good results… fell asleep within 30-45 minutes and stayed asleep for about six hours at least. Very little “hangover” that I can recall.

No bad dreams or other negative affects.

So I’ve been continuing to take it somewhat regularly over the last two and a half months. I’ve gone thru about 35 regular and 15 extended release with the following observations…

It’s starting to take me longer to fall asleep…sometimes over an hour.

Used to be that once I was out I was out… now I might wake a couple of times the first hour.

The ER resulted in about 7-8 straight hours of sleep. Past tense because each version is starting to be less effective for me. Now I get 7 max with the ER and about 5 with the regular.

Still no bad dreams at all but I have notcied an increase in dreaming (oddly) the nights that I don’t take it. Still don’t dream much at all when I take it.

Hangovers are worse… feel quite blah the next morning.

I’ve heard that all sleeping aids can lose effectiveness after a bit - sounds like that may be what’s happening with you. Try going a few weeks without (if you can) and see if it works better then.

Dreaming: I heard in regards to CPAP that you dream more (or at least remember more) because you’re getting to the correct sleep stage - on the other hand, remembering them means you’ve got more awakenings. So perhaps what’s happening is you’ve always been getting to that sleep stage but you’re not as “out”, so you remember them.

Just saw this.

No, specifically lack of movement during a flight (or even a drive) can lead to blood clots. The airlines show videos on how you’re supposed to stretch your legs. If you take an ambien, then you don’t move as much when you sleep. Blood can pool and clots can form. I did multiple economy class trips to Asia (~14 hour flights), and would take 1 -2 ambien and sleep the whole way. Well, Thanksgiving 4 years ago it felt like someone was wrenching around a knitting needle in my chest and I went to the ER. That only cost $12k, a year of being on blood thinners, and necessity of taking blood thinners and wearing compression socks the rest of my life for any long flight. I wouldn’t recommend it. YMMV.

I don’t remember the dose I tried, but maybe 8 years ago I briefly tried the CR version. I took it at about 9 pm, and by 7 am the next morning I was still so groggy I couldn’t even make it across the hall to the bathroom and had to call in to work. Luckily I was (and am) a public transit commuter, but certainly didn’t trust myself to function at all at work under the circumstances. I seem to remember it taking multiple attempts to call work.

I had a couple of (small, below the knee) blood clots after a round-trip to Cyprus a little over a year ago that included 2 eleven-hour nonstop flights. Luckily my doc sent me to the hospital vascular lab by appointment rather than via the ER, so it wasn’t as expensive for me as it was for China Guy. It was still a couple grand in various doctor and vascular lab appointments, though. Mine were below the knee, though, not in the lungs, so MUCH less serious. (And hardly painful at all; if I hadn’t had a similar issue after leg surgery 18 years ago and known I was at risk because of the long flights, I wouldn’t have even thought to have the doctor check it out. It just felt like a slightly sore knee.)

IANAD, of course, but rather than put me on Rx blood thinners, my doc had me take an aspirin a day for something like 3 months , and suggested that I take an aspirin before long flights in the future. YMMV. And on that last flight, I was thrilled that I’d actually managed to get some sleep…

I am the OP. I thought I would update everyone on my sleep problems.

For a while I went back to using Benedryl (I stopped using Ambien for the reasons described in the OP). That proved unsatisfactory. Basically, it stopped helping me after about a week, but if I stopped it, it made going to sleep even harder.

I investigated Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for Insomnia (CBT-I). My understanding of it is that it is a combination of “good sleep hygiene” (basically use your bed only for sleeping) coupled with a regimen of sleep deprivation. It is apparently quite successful for those who complete the regimen. It is apparently quite difficult. I decided to try it on my own. I had some degree of success, enough so that I get to sleep every night.

One problem is naps. I love me a good nap, but it is fairly easy to nap too long and make it difficult to get to sleep at night. This can throw you off fairly quickly and you are back not sleeping at night and napping during the day. I still nap sometimes, but I use a timer and don’t nap for more than 15 minutes. I also try to exercise and take long walks everyday. This works ok. Not great, but ok.

If I have trouble again, I will consider going to a therapist and doing the full regimen.