# Occupy movement: operation Rolling Jubilee, the people's bailout **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 15, 2012, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupy-movement-operation-rolling-jubilee-the-peoples-bailout/641053 "2012-11-15T01:39:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupy-movement-operation-rolling-jubilee-the-peoples-bailout/641053/21 "2012-11-15T22:29:42Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > It doesn’t seem bad from a moral standpoint but the random nature of it makes me feel as though the money could be better spent. > > If they buy a random piece of debt from a doctor’s office, that might be someone’s sole piece of outstanding debt and they’re blessed to have it erased and spare them… or it might be one piece of fifteen outstanding debts and the debtor realistically just as screwed even without the one bill. So now the debtor wasn’t really helped and Occupy WS is out the money they spent to do the good deed. Without being able to target their debt purchases, it seems like a feel-good scattershot thing rather than something fruitful. I think it is a great ROI on donated funds. Using $200k to wipe out potentially $4 million in debt. I like the randomness because then the people associated with the non-profit can’t be accused of helping themselves and their friends over the general public. Hopefully as this progresses, they get more publicity and the funding grows so that they can wipe out even more debt. It would also be nice if they did set up a system where they buy the debt and ‘settle it’ for the amount paid w/out profit for those that could afford it. If you had a $10k bill that was sold for only $100, most people would find a way to pay that instantly. That would make their money go even farther. ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupy-movement-operation-rolling-jubilee-the-peoples-bailout/641053/22 "2012-11-15T22:36:44Z")
So people rack up debt and then walk away from it. Learning nothing about how to handle money, how to save and not spend. Learning only that there are no consequences in this world. Lather, rinse and repeat every 5 years or so? StG Ant, not grasshopper ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupy-movement-operation-rolling-jubilee-the-peoples-bailout/641053/23 "2012-11-15T22:51:00Z")
I think the point of the Occupy movement is that the economy got flushed (it isn’t exactly unflushed at this point). Many people went under (look at how many 99 weekers there were). So, they are bringing attention to how the banks were bailed out, but the people are left screwed. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupy-movement-operation-rolling-jubilee-the-peoples-bailout/641053/24 "2012-11-15T23:13:55Z")
> [@StGermain](#): > > So people rack up debt and then walk away from it. Learning nothing about how to handle money, how to save and not spend. Learning only that there are no consequences in this world. Lather, rinse and repeat every 5 years or so? It works for Banks, Governments and Auto companies. But you’re right, it wouldn’t do to let normal people think that way. But seriously, people graduating with a massive student loan during a big economic slump or needing massive medical intervention while not fully insured don’t necessarily require a lesson in saving. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupy-movement-operation-rolling-jubilee-the-peoples-bailout/641053/25 "2012-11-15T23:38:24Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > Realistically, the Occupy movement can barely afford to buy a bag of chips at the local 7-11, so the effect of this would be minimal. > > It’s not a pyramid scam, but it’s also largely pointless. The kind of cheap debt they’re planning on buying is cheap because it’s been written off as worthless. If they think they’re going to buy, like, $100,000 of student loans for pennies on the dollar, they’re living in a fantasy world. Debt that is written off is not necessarily worthless; it just isn’t worth it to the company to collect it. There’s a certain dollar figure where, under that, it costs more for the company to continue to chase it than the debt is worth, so they write it off and move on to other, more profitable things. > [@StGermain](#): > > So people rack up debt and then walk away from it. Learning nothing about how to handle money, how to save and not spend. Learning only that there are no consequences in this world. Lather, rinse and repeat every 5 years or so? > > StG > Ant, not grasshopper I don’t necessarily agree with this, either. Some people will never learn, and they will spend their lives in debt and poor and never learn anything or get anywhere. Other people will find that a forgiven debt is the one break they need to finally start to get somewhere. I don’t think the Occupy people will be able to pick and choose which type they help, but if they manage to help anyone in the second category, it seems worth it to me. This sort of seems to me like the micro-loans that organizations like Kiva do. My husband and I loaned $25 to Kiva years ago; we’re on our fourth loan now, to the fourth group of very poor people who need just a little bit to help them get somewhere. Minimal outlay from people who can afford it, and maximum benefit to people who need it. ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupy-movement-operation-rolling-jubilee-the-peoples-bailout/641053/26 "2012-11-16T01:06:26Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > It works for Banks, Governments and Auto companies. But you’re right, it wouldn’t do to let normal people think that way. > > But seriously, people graduating with a massive student loan during a big economic slump or needing massive medical intervention while not fully insured don’t necessarily require a lesson in saving. [The banks, auto companies, etc, are paying back the loans. They aren’t bad debt writeoff, in fact they’re generating interest income.](http://projects.propublica.org/bailout/) In fact, the TARP loans are more than 85% paid back, and have generated $42B in revenue. Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae aren’t being paid back at this point, but are generating interest revenue. And of course, Fannie and Freddie were housing loans, defaulted on by people who are now wanting their debts erased for them. > [@](#): > > The Bailout Scorecard > > Last update: Nov. 15, 2012 > > Altogether, accounting for both the TARP and the Fannie and Freddie bailout, $605 billion has gone out the door—invested, loaned, or paid out—while $345 billion has been returned. > > The Treasury has been earning a return on most of the money invested or loaned. So far, it has earned $92.7B. When those revenues are taken into account, $166.7B is the net still outstanding as of Nov. 15, 2012. **Cat Whisperer** - If I were working with the people requesting debt repayment by a 3rd party, I would make it conditional upon taking at least 20 hours of financial management classes. Sure, some of these folks had bad luck, medical bills, etc. But the classes wouldn’t hurt for any adult, let alone someone with a proven track record of walking away from their obligations. In fact, I’d make it mandatory for all HS students (and maybe middle school, too) to take a one semester course in budgeting and money management. You can’t teach someone how to be abstemious and to delay gratification, but you could at least give them the knowledge to read a contract, understand interest, etc. StG ---
**Author:** ![excavating\_for\_a\_mind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e8c25b/32.png) [@excavating\_for\_a\_mind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/excavating_for_a_mind)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupy-movement-operation-rolling-jubilee-the-peoples-bailout/641053/27 "2012-11-16T02:14:55Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > It will be run by donations, and hopefully people whose debt is erased will be grateful and pass it on by donating themselves. > \ > The justification is: we bailed out the banks. Why not the people? This is what I see the problem is. The people whose debt is erased are deadbeats. They aren’t hard-working people who have fallen on hard times; they are folks that have decided that they don’t have to pay debts they rightfully owe; money they told people they would pay, but now don’t want to. People who want to pay what they owe work things out with their debtors. It’s the people who think they shouldn’t have to pay what they owe that go to collections. Sure, there are a small percentage that don’t follow this rule, but they are the exception. People who think they shouldn’t have to pay what they owe are also going to think they don’t have to pass it on. If this was not the case, they would have taken care of their responsibilities and not defaulted in the first place. The bail-out of the banks, and auto companies (which was really a bail-out of the unions, since the unions would have failed if the auto companies did) was revenue positive for the government, as has been mentioned. Buying-up the bad loans of deadbeats does nothing but drive-up the cost of bad loans. That is, more competition for the bad loans will just make the debt collectors have to work harder to collect for the loans they can buy. Which makes it more likely the deadbeats whose loans aren’t bought by “Rolling Jubilee” will have a harder time of it (and will be more likely to pay, albeit only slightly). excavating (for a mind) ---
**Author:** ![Taomist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@Taomist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taomist)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupy-movement-operation-rolling-jubilee-the-peoples-bailout/641053/28 "2012-11-16T02:29:13Z")
> [@Enkel](#): > > I think it is a great ROI on donated funds. Using $200k to wipe out potentially $4 million in debt. I like the randomness because then the people associated with the non-profit can’t be accused of helping themselves and their friends over the general public. Hopefully as this progresses, they get more publicity and the funding grows so that they can wipe out even more debt. > > It would also be nice if they did set up a system where they buy the debt and ‘settle it’ for the amount paid w/out profit for those that could afford it. If you had a $10k bill that was sold for only $100, most people would find a way to pay that instantly. That would make their money go even farther. I like this, it could recycle itself. Say I owe 5,000 on a student loan\* and it was sold for 1,000. It gets bought up by the charity, which lets the debtor know it’s been taken care of, and the debtor can donate or repay whatever they want, or nothing. It wouldn’t be self-sustaining, but it could go a lot further that way. - For some reason I don’t think student loans would come into this; they are always full-price what you owe, never reduced. At least mine never have been. This may be part of the reason it’s never covered by bankruptcy…? ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupy-movement-operation-rolling-jubilee-the-peoples-bailout/641053/29 "2012-11-16T02:32:50Z")
There’s one consideration I haven’t seen addressed: debts forgiven are treated as taxable income by the IRS. So, if you purchase a $10K debt and discharge the debt, the debtor will be liable for taxes on that income. So, the relief of having a debt wiped out is tempered by the knowledge that you’ll be on the hook come April 15th. ---
**Author:** ![Taomist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@Taomist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taomist)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupy-movement-operation-rolling-jubilee-the-peoples-bailout/641053/30 "2012-11-16T02:35:13Z")
> [@phouka](#): > > There’s one consideration I haven’t seen addressed: debts forgiven are treated as taxable income by the IRS. So, if you purchase a $10K debt and discharge the debt, the debtor will be liable for taxes on that income. So, the relief of having a debt wiped out is tempered by the knowledge that you’ll be on the hook come April 15th. On the hook for 10k, or for the 1k it was purchased for? I have to assume the 1k, since if it went to regular debt collectors, there is no ‘you still gotta pay taxes \ on the other 9,000’ afterwards. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupy-movement-operation-rolling-jubilee-the-peoples-bailout/641053/31 "2012-11-16T02:45:39Z")
Donation website here: [http://rollingjubilee.org/](http://rollingjubilee.org/) It’s a 501 c(4), in case anyone is interested. Parent organization: [http://strikedebt.org/](http://strikedebt.org/) IMHO, the parent’s grasp isn’t as solid as that of [Occupy the SEC](http://www.occupythesec.org/). Still, they do have an informative financial guide, though it is a little dubious in parts. ETA: > [@phouka](#): > > There’s one consideration I haven’t seen addressed: debts forgiven are treated as taxable income by the IRS. So, if you purchase a $10K debt and discharge the debt, the debtor will be liable for taxes on that income. So, the relief of having a debt wiped out is tempered by the knowledge that you’ll be on the hook come April 15th. Does the ~$13,000 (or whatever) annual gift waiver apply? ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupy-movement-operation-rolling-jubilee-the-peoples-bailout/641053/32 "2012-11-16T02:49:54Z")
> [@phouka](#): > > There’s one consideration I haven’t seen addressed: debts forgiven are treated as taxable income by the IRS. So, if you purchase a $10K debt and discharge the debt, the debtor will be liable for taxes on that income. So, the relief of having a debt wiped out is tempered by the knowledge that you’ll be on the hook come April 15th. Your on the hook when it is writen off (so bank X sells off your debt of $10k in 2007, then you have the $10k income in 2007). I doubt they’re buying those ‘fresh’ debts because they are more expensive. And even if they were buying those, the IRS ‘income’ happened because bank X wrote it off. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupy-movement-operation-rolling-jubilee-the-peoples-bailout/641053/33 "2012-11-16T02:56:30Z")
Their original goal was $50k. They hit $200k before the telethon started, so raised their goal to $250k (to retire $5 million in debt). Right now, they’re within $2.5k of making that goal and they still have at least an hour (maybe 2?) left in the telethon. Obviously, some people don’t agree with their approach, but clearly there are others who do support what they’re doing. They’ve been mixing interesting musical guests with educational guests. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupy-movement-operation-rolling-jubilee-the-peoples-bailout/641053/34 "2012-11-16T03:01:09Z")
They’re hash bombing “donate $5 in the name of Karl Rove”… bet he’ll love it when they send him a receipt for his donations to Occupy. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupy-movement-operation-rolling-jubilee-the-peoples-bailout/641053/35 "2012-11-16T03:03:59Z")
They made $251K… so made their goal and still have an hour to go. Good for them. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupy-movement-operation-rolling-jubilee-the-peoples-bailout/641053/36 "2012-11-16T03:05:27Z")
BTW: the Karl Rove hashbomb seems to have brought in $2k in about 5 minutes. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupy-movement-operation-rolling-jubilee-the-peoples-bailout/641053/37 "2012-11-16T04:28:17Z")
> [@StGermain](#): > > [The banks, auto companies, etc, are paying back the loans. They aren’t bad debt writeoff, in fact they’re generating interest income.](http://projects.propublica.org/bailout/) In fact, the TARP loans are more than 85% paid back, and have generated $42B in revenue. Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae aren’t being paid back at this point, but are generating interest revenue. So if we are going to be serious about my comment, are you then assuming any normal person bailed out by this scheme couldn’t become a more productive member of society afterwards? Because you are basically saying they all will idiotically assume they’ll get bailed out every five years. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupy-movement-operation-rolling-jubilee-the-peoples-bailout/641053/38 "2012-11-16T04:57:55Z")
> [@StGermain](#): > > \ > **Cat Whisperer** - If I were working with the people requesting debt repayment by a 3rd party, I would make it conditional upon taking at least 20 hours of financial management classes. Sure, some of these folks had bad luck, medical bills, etc. But the classes wouldn’t hurt for any adult, let alone someone with a proven track record of walking away from their obligations. In fact, I’d make it mandatory for all HS students (and maybe middle school, too) to take a one semester course in budgeting and money management. You can’t teach someone how to be abstemious and to delay gratification, but you could at least give them the knowledge to read a contract, understand interest, etc. > > StG More financial education certainly wouldn’t be a bad idea. > [@excavating\_for\_a\_mind](#): > > This is what I see the problem is. The people whose debt is erased are deadbeats. They aren’t hard-working people who have fallen on hard times; they are folks that have decided that they don’t have to pay debts they rightfully owe; money they told people they would pay, but now don’t want to. > > People who want to pay what they owe work things out with their debtors. It’s the people who think they shouldn’t have to pay what they owe that go to collections. Sure, there are a small percentage that don’t follow this rule, but they are the exception. > > People who think they shouldn’t have to pay what they owe are also going to think they don’t have to pass it on. If this was not the case, they would have taken care of their responsibilities and not defaulted in the first place.\ I don’t think it’s anywhere near as simple as that. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupy-movement-operation-rolling-jubilee-the-peoples-bailout/641053/39 "2012-11-16T08:42:10Z")
> [@excavating\_for\_a\_mind](#): > > This is what I see the problem is. The people whose debt is erased are deadbeats. Oh, by definition. And 40-60% of all bankruptcies in the US are medical related. It’s not unusual for somebody to become sick or injured, rack up high medical bills and find themselves deep in debt. [Citation](http://voices.washingtonpost.com/health-care-reform/2009/06/new_study_shows_medical_bills.html). > [@](#): > > They aren’t hard-working people who have fallen on hard times; they are folks that have decided that they don’t have to pay debts they rightfully owe; money they told people they would pay, but now don’t want to. Cite? It seems to me that high debt follows avalanches of credit offers. [Cite](http://www.law.indiana.edu/ilj/volumes/v73/no4/01.html). > [@](#): > > Buying-up the bad loans of deadbeats does nothing but drive-up the cost of bad loans. That is, more competition for the bad loans will just make the debt collectors have to work harder to collect for the loans they can buy. Which makes it more likely the deadbeats whose loans aren’t bought by “Rolling Jubilee” will have a harder time of it (and will be more likely to pay, albeit only slightly). Yes, only slightly, given the extremely minimal dent this puts in a very large problem. Meanwhile hundreds get a 2nd chance. In fact on a cost benefit basis you are comparing molecules to mountains. ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupy-movement-operation-rolling-jubilee-the-peoples-bailout/641053/40 "2012-11-16T15:28:19Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > So if we are going to be serious about my comment, are you then assuming any normal person bailed out by this scheme couldn’t become a more productive member of society afterwards? Because you are basically saying they all will idiotically assume they’ll get bailed out every five years. **CarnalK** - The difference between the big business bailout and this, is the bailees have been expected to pay back their loans with interest. What’s being proposed here is that someone else pays back your loan, and if you feel like it, you might throw a few bucks in the donation jar. No accountability, and you’re not _required_ to repay it in full, let alone add interest to it. StG [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupy-movement-operation-rolling-jubilee-the-peoples-bailout/641053.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupy-movement-operation-rolling-jubilee-the-peoples-bailout/641053.md?page=3)