# \#OccupyWallStreet **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 19, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851 "2011-09-19T18:27:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 101
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2001 "2011-11-13T22:13:43Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > In fact, the average Joe is pretty fat and happy. He has a household income of 43k and is 69% likely to own his home. Actually, it was [$49,445 in 2010](http://www.davemanuel.com/median-household-income.php). But the average Joe wasn’t feeling very fat or happy, since his income was [down 6.4% just since 2007](http://www.davemanuel.com/median-household-income.php). Not to mention, as **'luc** alludes, he’s had an unusually high chance, by the standards of recent history, of having gotten kicked out of his house, or the banks threatening to do so. (Whether they happen to hold the loan or not. :mad:\*\*) Even more to the point of what’s happened with the average Joe versus the top 1%, that median household income has increased only 7% **since 1973**. When you consider how much wealthier we are as a nation than we were in 1973, it’s pretty clear that the average Joe has been consistently getting screwed over the intervening decades. ETA: Also, between 1973 and now, we’ve gone from a society where men were the breadwinners and women stayed home with the kids, to one where SAHMs are a distinct minority. So we’ve got more workers per household, and yet… ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2002 "2011-11-13T22:34:31Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Anyway, the whole thing is over. You got rapes, and fringe people and nutcases, and cold weather. > > So much for this political movement. It doesn’t look like it is likely to outlast this thread. Or you can look at the graph Ben Smith of Politico posts [here](http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1111/Occupy_Wall_Street_is_winning.html), and as he notes: > [@](#): > > Whatever the objectives of protesters involved in Occupy Wall Street, they have succeeded in engaging the country in a conversation about income inequality. > > A quick search of the news–including print articles, web stories and broadcast transcripts–via Nexis reveals a significant rise in the use of the term “income inequality,” from less than 91 instances in the week before the occupation started to almost 500 instances last week. But if **Scylla** says it’s over, it must be over. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2003 "2011-11-13T22:48:12Z")
I apologize in advance, as well as in hindsight for my previous posts, if I seem exasperated in my posts. You see, when I post, I try very, _very_ hard not to fall into the “My opponent is _lying on purpose_!” trap. Normally I don’t have to concentrate on it. You are really, _really_ pushing it, though. Some of your statements are just so incredibly disingenuous that I have to wonder what the hell you’re talking about. > [@Scylla](#): > > Is this true? Well I can think of no example in recent history of larger coffers than Philip Morris. Consistently though they have been losing political ground because of the will of the people. …After losing a brutal, decade-long legal battle against pretty much everyone in the country, including many among the upper classes. Not to mention that they started losing ground on this in a _completely_ different political climate, and, as RTF has pointed out, the overwhelming victory here came in the form of a lawsuit, not legislation, and I think we can all agree that it’s harder to buy a Supreme Court Justice than it is to buy a congressman. > [@](#): > > Green initiatives are not exactly friendly to large industrial conglomerates but the green movement has gained and continues to gain vast political power, and win many of the changes it has sought. Yep, this is one example where a vast majority of the people banded together and [_oh wait my bad_](http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2011/08/17/298288/rick-perry-big-oil-climate/). There’s a reason that people quipped about Huntsman moving into “unelectable” territory by posting a tweet claiming that he believed in global warming and evolution, and while I admit that this one has more to do with the average republican voter being either apathetic or ignorant in regards to climate change, there’s no denying that the corrupting element of big business plays a crucial role in this. In other places, where big money in government isn’t such a problem, you wouldn’t have shit like this–a candidate in Germany who claimed that Climate Change was a left-wing, scientific conspiracy would get his ass laughed out all the way to the unemployment line. To be fair, this is just one example, and overall, you do have a point. But it’s worth mentioning that this is an issue where the USA is dragging behind pretty much every other first-world country in a drastic way, and to an extent, especially when considering morons like Rick Perry, you have to wonder why. I personally think it’s partially big business getting its grubby hands everywhere, and partially religious anti-intellectualism, but that’s just me. …Actually… hold that thought. What, exactly, did we get done? No, seriously. What measures did we pass in, say, the last 15 years, that have to do with climate change and global warming? Honest question, I just can’t think of anything in particular, although I get the feeling I’m forgetting a big one here. > [@](#): > > Ralph Nader basically took on big auto by himself… And won. This is vague enough to be completely unhelpful. 🙂 > [@](#): > > I could give many more examples. > So no. Part 1 cannot be said to be consistently true It can be said to be true often enough, and in enough areas, in important enough parts of legislature, for it to be a true problem. When the people (recent polls showed a massive 67%) clamor for higher taxes on the rich, and the politicians turn around and propose a tax plan that lowers taxes on the rich drastically and raise them on the poor, _especially_ when we know for a fact that this doesn’t help the economy one fucking bit, you have to wonder: “What are the motives here?” > [@](#): > > I suppose they have a greater ability to wield influence in ways that use money, but again, your argument is not consistently true. As a quick example, Baltimore and Atlanta are both cities where you have a rich predominantly white minority, and a poorer predominantly black majority. It is the latter group that typically gets its candidates into office, not the former. What do the candidates do while in office? Furthermore, aren’t these kind of extreme examples, that do not reflect the vast, _vast_ majority of political discourse in the USA? > [@](#): > > Yeah, but I think you are wrong and naive and simplistic, and I think it’s really an excuse to go after rich people because your arguments don’t actually hold water when examined critically. And, you are not 99%. I’m pretty sure that a majority of the population rolls their eyes at the occupy nonsense. How exactly am I proposing that we “go after rich people”? By removing their ability to pump millions upon millions of dollars into the campaigns of politicians (which is either heavily corrupting, as I believe, or does not much worth noting and therefore isn’t a huge loss anyways, as you seem to believe)? By reinstating crucial legislature that prevents them from essentially gambling with tax-insured funds? By splitting up “too big to fail” corporations that really should have been the target of anti-trust lawsuits? By cleaning up loopholes in the tax code and raising the effective tax rates on major corporations and the super rich to a reasonable level (fun fact: several large corporations actually had a NEGATIVE tax rate from 2008 to 2011)? OH MY GOD CLASS WARFARE! Furthermore, you misrepresent what “We are the 99%” actually means, ignore the fact that the occupy movements have come to represent hundreds of thousands of people throughout the country (as has been pointed out, there were _tens of thousands_ in Oakland alone), and offer an explanation of the situation which is completely founded in your own imagination, but then again I’ve come to expect nothing less from you. > [@](#): > > You can start a new political party to get your voice heard… Like the tea party. Scylla, do you know what the term “[Astroturf](http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2010/oct/25/tea-party-koch-brothers)” means? I don’t know about you, but somehow I don’t think the Tea Party helps your case when you remember that the main reason it got off the ground was that it had _huge_ corporate fundraising backing it. Hell, there’s exactly one reason that I think that the Occupy movement couldn’t spawn a new political party: no money in it. Everyone with personal interest in their goals is going to be too poor to be of much help. > [@](#): > > Even if it never gets a candidate elected, it’s existence is an exercise in political power. An exercise in completely hopeless political power. > [@](#): > > You can use the court system and the media to bring attention to instances of corruption and cronyism. Here’s the problem: it’s legal. Virtually everything that I’m complaining about is legal. You can do it legally with no problems. If it comes out, it _might_ become a scandal, but for the most part, people don’t tend to care enough about it to make it a job-loss issue. > [@](#): > > Administrations have fallen with such with hardly the need for any camping out. You could start a union, or a PAC, like [moveon.org](http://moveon.org). > > Need I go on? No. You’ve shown That you have no idea just how much of a role money plays in the political systems of the USA. I don’t think we need anything else, really. > [@](#): > > You’ve mistated my argument. I am not saying embrace or accept corruption :rolleyes: I really don’t see how you get that from what I said. What I said is that corruption is not a function of wealth, but of power and human nature. …So why shouldn’t we limit the corruption caused by a massive influx of power from certain extremely rich groups and individuals? > [@RTFirefly](#): > > That was to **Budget Player Cadet** and **Mr. Svinlesha** , respectively. He’s already long since dismissed everyone else as beneath him. Guess nobody here is worthy of debating **Scylla**. To be fair, I went ahead and started being unpleasant by calling him an asshole. I hold to this statement. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2004 "2011-11-13T22:50:34Z")
Maybe it is time to let it go. Maybe there are too many problems associated with a long-standing occupation, problems our enemies are only too happy to highlight and exploit. Perhaps it would be best to dissolve and disperse, and move towards a tactic of demonstrations, etc. in response to specific causes. Rest assured, they will give us plenty to bitch about. Evolving isn’t losing, evolving is staying alive long enough to win. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2005 "2011-11-13T23:09:25Z")
**elucidator:** > [@](#): > > \*In this, at least, the OWS goofy insistence on benign anarchy has a point: your leaders cannot be bribed and compromised if you have none, they cannot negotiate away an agenda that is not written. Can’t work, of course, compromise is finally necessary, progress is an ongoing exchange of compromise. > > But, by damn! its good to see a flash of idealistic spirit in the mouldering corpse of American politics! By damn it is! If nothing else comes of it, this was worth the doing. \* See, this. Damn me to hell, cynic that I am, but I just can’t help thinking the same thing. A fully hopeless and futile conceit, but goddammit, they’re right. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2006 "2011-11-13T23:42:35Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Maybe it is time to let it go. Maybe there are too many problems associated with a long-standing occupation, problems our enemies are only too happy to highlight and exploit. Perhaps it would be best to dissolve and disperse, and move towards a tactic of demonstrations, etc. in response to specific causes. Rest assured, they will give us plenty to bitch about. > > Evolving isn’t losing, evolving is staying alive long enough to win. It is worth doing, but the costs are enormous. In Oakland the people doing damage and spray painting were not known to the occupiers. That brings up the old question of whether they are outside agitators ,paid to make the occupations look bad. Or perhaps people who don’t like the occupations and want to harm their cause. But life in the camps is scary. Some people are homeless because they are crazy. Their actions are unpredictable and some fly off the handle at imaginary affronts. A few need medication or psychiatric help. The camps are open so people who want to make trouble can walk right in. The campers are not trained at policing and don’t know how to handle them. There is talk of Occupy Detroit moving to private land. But that goes against the concept that they need to be seen to make a mark. Staying on Woodward provides a constant reminder to those who drive by. There also is talk about quitting until spring. Michigan winters could kill some people living in tents. ---
**Author:** ![Stately\_Greek\_Automaton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Stately\_Greek\_Automaton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stately_Greek_Automaton)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2007 "2011-11-14T00:02:22Z")
Unfortunately [this link](http://www.biz2credit.com/biz2credit-small-business-lending-index) only shows approval rates for small business loans back to January of this year, but it’s pretty telling. Approval rates for loans from large banks ($10B in assets or greater) has dropped from a high :dubious: of 12.8% to 9.3% in October. Small bank approval rates have meanwhile risen to 46.3% from 43.5%. Also interesting is this quip: > [@](#): > > The Index also identified the Top 5 reasons why small business borrowers have not received funding: > > 1. More than 68% of small businesses reported declining sales in first 9 months of 2011(fewer and fewer borrowers are reporting declines in revenue, which is a good sign for the economy) > > 2. Profitability has declined at more than 86% of small businesses over the past 2 years. > > 3. Bank underwriting criteria is stricter now than in 2010 when stimulus money was flowing. > > 4. Uncertainty among big banks is leading to increased dissatisfaction among small business owners. > > 5. Avoidance: small business owners believe they are unlikely to get loans and that the process takes too long. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2008 "2011-11-14T00:41:46Z")
> [@Mr.Svinlesha](#): > > **Scylla:** > > I’m accusing you of inconsistency, of logical incoherence… > > I do confess, as time goes on, that I’m having more and more trouble believing that you honestly believe some of the things you say you believe. What was that first sentence again? > [@](#): > > I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt… Uh-huh. WTF? Generally, that’s the sort of shit you should separate by a post or two. You think, maybe? Anyway, I tried twice. You don’t fucking get it, and I’m not thinking much of your sincerity based on the evidence of the above. It’s not that complex either. Some things you can change by voting, others… human nature type things… things intrinsic in society… not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2009 "2011-11-14T00:53:09Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > I apologize in advance, as well as in hindsight for my previous posts, if I seem exasperated in my posts. You see, when I post, I try very, _very_ hard not to fall into the “My opponent is _lying on purpose_!” trap. Normally I don’t have to concentrate on it. You are really, _really_ pushing it, though. Some of your statements are just so incredibly disingenuous that I have to wonder what the hell you’re talking about. I’ve come to think that we are running different operating systems, and look at things very diefferently. > [@](#): > > …After losing a brutal, decade-long legal battle against pretty much everyone in the country, including many among the upper classes. Not to mention that they started losing ground on this in a _completely_ different political climate, and, as RTF has pointed out, the overwhelming victory here came in the form of a lawsuit, not legislation, and I think we can all agree that it’s harder to buy a Supreme Court Justice than it is to buy a congressman. I don’t even see RTFtrolls posts anymore. Anyway. Money didn’t trump all there, and that was my point. > [@](#): > > Yep, this is one example where a vast majority of the people banded together and [_oh wait my bad_](http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2011/08/17/298288/rick-perry-big-oil-climate/). There’s a reason that people quipped about Huntsman moving into “unelectable” territory by posting a tweet claiming that he believed in global warming and evolution, and while I admit that this one has more to do with the average republican voter being either apathetic or ignorant in regards to climate change, there’s no denying that the corrupting element of big business plays a crucial role in this. In other places, where big money in government isn’t such a problem, you wouldn’t have shit like this–a candidate in Germany who claimed that Climate Change was a left-wing, scientific conspiracy would get his ass laughed out all the way to the unemployment line. So? Is your argument here that there has been no headway? > [@](#): > > To be fair, this is just one example, and overall, you do have a point. But it’s worth mentioning that this is an issue where the USA is dragging behind pretty much every other first-world country in a drastic way, and to an extent, especially when considering morons like Rick Perry, you have to wonder why. I personally think it’s partially big business getting its grubby hands everywhere, and partially religious anti-intellectualism, but that’s just me. Ok, there is headway. > [@](#): > > …Actually… hold that thought. > > What, exactly, did we get done? No, seriously. What measures did we pass in, say, the last 15 years, that have to do with climate change and global warming? Honest question, I just can’t think of anything in particular, although I get the feeling I’m forgetting a big one here. No. There is no headway. I’m confused. Are you conceding that I have a point or not? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2010 "2011-11-14T03:39:20Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > … Some things you can change by voting, others… human nature type things… things intrinsic in society… not so much. That’s the signpost just ahead, we are heading into Deep Bullshit, philosophical bullshit, revealed truths, eternal verities. Which “things” are these, **Scylla**? These “human nature” things that are “intrinsic”? As a species, we survived and evolved for untold thousands of years as a cooperative social species, are we now somehow “intrinsic” capitalists? When did that happen? Sharing, cooperation, mutual community, collective responsibility…these notions are one hell of a lot more “intrinsic” than New Coke. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2011 "2011-11-14T03:59:28Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > That’s the signpost just ahead, we are heading into Deep Bullshit, philosophical bullshit, revealed truths, eternal verities. True. Thanks for warning us. > [@](#): > > Which “things” are these, **Scylla**? These “human nature” things that are “intrinsic”? As a species, we survived and evolved for untold thousands of years as a cooperative social species, are we now somehow “intrinsic” capitalists? When did that happen? I don’t know. Since you are just pulling shit out of your ass why don’t you tell us? You know, I used to think you were 99% empty rhetoric and bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2012 "2011-11-14T04:03:54Z")
The High Financier has spoken! _rings gong_ ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2013 "2011-11-14T04:09:02Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > The High Financier has spoken! _rings gong_ You found something commensurate with your skills! Congrats. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2014 "2011-11-14T04:12:11Z")
Stick to writing about blimps, your slice of life is waay funnier than your insults. =P ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2015 "2011-11-14T04:22:22Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Stick to writing about blimps, your slice of life is waay funnier than your insults. =P Said the lady whose best insult is to pretend to ring a gong. You need to give me something to work with. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2016 "2011-11-14T04:26:31Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Said the lady Wow. You’ve achieved fifth grade. First you get my career wrong, then my gender. Gonna call me “gay” next? > [@](#): > > whose best insult is to pretend to ring a gong. I’d say it’s pretty good, since your primary participation in this thread has been to contribute useless cites and reams of personal experience that are at odds with pretty much every reliable narrative of the actual events. And then you play dumb as a box of hammers (labeled “One Box of Hammers”, in the back storage room of a hammer store) when you get called on your internally inconsistent, self-serving bullshit of a monologue. So yeah, I’d say it’s a pretty good insult to refer to you as “High Financier” and highlight the amazing, oft-repeated, frankly hilarious self-importance of every bullshit post you make. Sorry you can’t come up with any reasonable counter, though. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2017 "2011-11-14T07:26:05Z")
**Scylla:** > [@](#): > > \*Uh-huh. > > WTF? > > Generally, that’s the sort of shit you should separate by a post or two. You think, maybe?\* Just because I think you’re being inconsistent doesn’t make me right. I’m willing to be convinced otherwise if you can clearly demonstrate how I’m wrong. Stating clearly and unequivocally what I think doesn’t make me close minded – it communicates to you what I think, so you can respond (or not, if you so choose). Maybe my posting style has been too abrupt, or brusque? I wrote in one of my first replies to you that perhaps there was no point in us even discussing this, and said I leave it to you to decide whether my reply was worth responding to or not. I never held out much hope we would come to any sort of consensus, and now that we haven’t, well, I’m fine with that. So explain yourself, if so inclined. My hypothesis, that you would “_return to this thread with some kind of bullshit rationalization as two why these two obviously contradictory statements are actually quite consistent with each other_” has yet to be falsified, quite the contrary. Prove me wrong! Or not. > [@](#): > > _Anyway, I tried twice._ No, **Scylla**. So far, you haven’t even tried once. > [@](#): > > _You don’t fucking get it, and I’m not thinking much of your sincerity based on the evidence of the above. It’s not that complex either. Some things you can change by voting, others… human nature type things… things intrinsic in society… not so much._ Well, that’s certainly a complicated concept. Clearly over my poor little head. Yet in both of the quotes above, we were talking specifically about how to achieve lasting, significant social change. At first you call me naive for thinking I could achieve this by voting, and in the second you claim that all I need to do, really, is vote. No need to sit out in a park. So which is it? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2018 "2011-11-14T11:03:00Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I don’t even see RTFtrolls posts anymore. Guess I hurt his poor fee-fees. 🙂 Anyway, just to reiterate my earlier public service announcement, if you want Scylla to address any of my cites or arguments, you’ll have to incorporate them into your own posts. Feel free to re-use my words as you wish! [QUOTE=Scylla] Money didn’t trump all there, and that was my point. [/QUOTE] But there’s no replicable course of action here. There’s no “the OWS people should do X instead of what they’re doing” takeaway. Also, the outlier nature of this example suggests that the tons of examples Scylla says he can think of need to be presented to similar scrutiny. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2019 "2011-11-14T14:04:18Z")
Good post by investment guru Barry Ritholtz this morning on cognitive dissonance and the crash. Some excerpts, but [read the whole thing](http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2011/11/the-cognitive-dissidents/): > [@](#): > > The data is overwhelming as to what did and did not cause the financial collapse. The belief that markets can self regulate, that bankers can be trusted to act int heir own best interest, even that people are rational, have all been shown to be siilly nonsense. > > \ > > Some people have recognized their belief system was overrun by reality. They are chastened, have begun searching for a new or modified ideology. > > Many others refuse. Facts be damned, they double down, sticking with their beliefs, regardless of all evidence to the contrary. > > I have a new name for these folks: They are Cognitive Dissidents. They will continue to dissent from reality for as long as it takes to get everyone else to believe as they do, no matter how much evidence there is to the contrary. > > If you engage with a Cognitive Dissident, it is futile to try to use facts or data… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2020 "2011-11-14T15:36:58Z")
And so, another American recognizes that Cognitiive Dissonance is the number one threat to the Republic! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851.md?page=100) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851.md?page=102)