# \#OccupyWallStreet **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 19, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851 "2011-09-19T18:27:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 102
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2021 "2011-11-14T15:48:04Z")
I’ve long abandoned this party, but does it strike anyone else as sort of odd to confuse [jlzania](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php) with [Zeriel](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php)? I mean besides both of them being dirty hippies and all… ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2022 "2011-11-14T16:24:40Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I’ve come to think that we are running different operating systems, and look at things very diefferently. Yes, but in this case, at least one of us is very clearly wrong. > [@](#): > > I don’t even see RTFtrolls posts anymore. Anyway. Money didn’t trump all there, and that was my point. Indeed. In a case where it was basically one industry sector against _everyone else_, one that completely circumvented the legislative. Your point is nice, but (and pardon me seeming to move the goal posts here) it says very little about the absolute corruption and cronyism which is not only present in congress, but also legal. > [@](#): > > So? Is your argument here that there has been no headway? Not nearly enough for an issue with this kind of support and backing. > [@](#): > > Ok, there is headway. Maybe? > [@](#): > > No. There is no headway. > > I’m confused. Are you conceding that I have a point or not? I’m asking you what we did. I’d be unsurprised if we managed _something_ in this field, but I’m left wondering what exactly we pulled off, if anything. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2023 "2011-11-14T16:27:15Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Wow. You’ve achieved fifth grade. First you get my career wrong, then my gender. Gonna call me “gay” next? Well, you do come off both bitchy and dick less, so perhaps you can excuse my confusion. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2024 "2011-11-14T16:53:54Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Well, you do come off both bitchy and dick less, so perhaps you can excuse my confusion. And we’re still in the fifth grade. Sexism too? I wouldn’t have said, before this thread, that I should have been expecting that from you. I should have been expecting that from you, O Grand High Financier. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2025 "2011-11-14T16:57:21Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Good post by investment guru Barry Ritholtz this morning on cognitive dissonance and the crash. Some excerpts, but [read the whole thing](http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2011/11/the-cognitive-dissidents/): Great article, RT! There are over 30 years of hard evidence that “trickle down” economics is probably one of the biggest economic lies ever perpetrated on the American public. It was “invented” as a purely political ploy for Republicans to win elections, by a man named Jude Wanniski, who was tired of seeing Democrats win because the electorate saw them as “Santa Claus.” Since he knew the Republican policy of tax reduction for the wealthy wasn’t resonating with voters, he devised a way to frame it so that it would make Republicans look like a second Santa Claus; if you let the rich get richer, they’ll trickle it down to you — win/win! > [@](#): > > [Two Santa Clauses or How The Republican Party Has Conned America for Thirty Years](http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/01/26-0) > > By 1974, Jude Wanniski had had enough. The Democrats got to play Santa Claus when they passed out Social Security and Unemployment checks – both programs of the New Deal – as well as when their “big government” projects like roads, bridges, and highways were built giving a healthy union paycheck to construction workers. They kept raising taxes on businesses and rich people to pay for things, which didn’t seem to have much effect at all on working people (wages were steadily going up, in fact), and that made them seem like a party of Robin Hoods, taking from the rich to fund programs for the poor and the working class. Americans loved it. And every time Republicans railed against these programs, they lost elections. > > Everybody understood at the time that economies are driven by demand. People with good jobs have money in their pockets, and want to use it to buy things. The job of the business community is to either determine or drive that demand to their particular goods, and when they’re successful at meeting the demand then factories get built, more people become employed to make more products, and those newly-employed people have a paycheck that further increases demand. > > Wanniski decided to turn the classical world of economics – which had operated on this simple demand-driven equation for seven thousand years – on its head. In 1974 he invented a new phrase – “supply side economics” – and suggested that the reason economies grew wasn’t because people had money and wanted to buy things with it but, instead, because things were available for sale, thus tantalizing people to part with their money. The more things there were, the faster the economy would grow. It was a craven political move, not designed to better the economy, but to advance Republicans in public office. It didn’t work then and it hasn’t worked for 30 fucking years. Hasn’t. Worked. Empirically. Factually. Thirty years later we have one of the widest gaps in income disparity this country has ever seen. Corporations are posting [record high profits](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/24/business/economy/24econ.html), offshoring their billions so they don’t have to pay taxes on that income, paying effective tax rates of Zero or less in many instances, and blaming American workers for demanding a liveable wage. All the while, our infrastructure is crumbling, the middle class is disappearing, poverty has risen to frightening levels, unemployment remains high and the people fighting for good economic practices are being labeled as fueling “class warfare,” even though it is their “class” upon which war has been waged for 30 freaking years. Now, nobody is saying the rich aren’t entitled to be rich. G-d bless 'em! But there’s no way in hell the middle class is going to continue to allow them to become _filthy_ rich **at their expense** anymore. Some of us have finally had [ENOUGH](http://reelectdemocrats.blogspot.com/2011/08/its-time-for-real-grassroots-uprising.html) and aren’t going to take it anymore. It’s inexcusable in the richest country on earth that the richest of the rich have seen their share of the national income increase 285% while the middle class has actually lost ground. [This chart makes it glaringly obvious](http://www.businessinsider.com/its-official-the-1-really-is-different-2011-10). When wealth is concentrated so disproportionately at the top, [bad things happen to society as a whole](http://www.businessinsider.com/why-income-inequality-is-a-really-big-deal-2011-11). Crime goes up. Mental health problems increase among the population. Teen pregnancy goes up. Child welfare goes down. Life expectancy goes down. High School dropout rates increase. Yet the Republican party and its party members continue to _insist_ that it’s the poor’s fault. They trot out crap like “47% of Americans don’t pay taxes,” ignoring that that figure represents only federal _income_ taxes, and glossing over the fact that a large percentage of those people are seniors living on non-taxable Social Security benefits and truly destitute people living well below the poverty line who don’t have a pot to piss in, let alone a percentage of their pittance of income to contribute. The Republicans have framed Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid as “entitlements” that the poor or elderly who use them are _over_using and must be cut. They rile their base up to hate these people for “taking government handouts,” as if they had any other choice. And until today you would never hear them acknowledging that the “handouts” provided to the elderly and poor, downright _pale_ in comparison to the handouts given to the richest of the rich in this country. Today, by far _the_ most conservative member of the Senate, Tom Coburn, has released a study that outlines the billions and billions of “handouts” the federal government doles out to millionaires and billionaires (as if they needed any). Those include but are not limited to: tax write-offs for gambling losses, vacation homes, and luxury yachts to subsidies for their ranches and estates. They’re even being _paid_ by the federal government for _not_ working! Yep, you heard that right; **lazy ass millionaires are not working and receiving checks for their laziness from Uncle Sam, aka You and Me**. > [@](#): > > [Subsidies of the Rich & Famous](http://coburn.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?a=Files.Serve&File_id=bb1c90bc-660c-477e-91e6-91c970fbee1f) _by Senator Tom Coburn_ > > With families across the country struggling to make ends meet during these economically trying times, many are left with few options so they are turning to the government – some very reluctantly – for assistance. The government safety net has been cast far and wide, with almost half of all American households now receiving some form of government assistance.1 But most taxpayers will be asking why when they learn who is receiving what. > > From tax write-offs for gambling losses, vacation homes, and luxury yachts to subsidies for their ranches and estates, the government is subsidizing the lifestyles of the rich and famous. Multimillionaires are even receiving government checks for not working. This welfare for the well-off – costing billions of dollars a year – is being paid for with the taxes of the less fortunate, many who are working two jobs just to make ends meet, and IOUs to be paid off by future generations. > > This is not an accidental loophole in the law. To the contrary, this reverse Robin Hood style of wealth redistribution is an intentional effort to get all Americans bought into a system where everyone appears to benefit. > > … > > The government’s social safety net, which has long existed to catch those who are down and help them get back up, is now being used as a hammock by some millionaires, some who are paying less taxes than average middle class families. Comprehensive information on the full range of government benefits enjoyed by millionaires has never been collected previously. This report provides the first such compilation. **What it reveals is sheer Washington stupidity with government policies pampering the wealthy costing taxpayers billions of dollars every year.** > > These billions of dollars for millionaires include $74 million of unemployment checks, $316 million in farm subsidies, $89 million for preservation of ranches and estates, $9 billion of retirement checks, $75.6 million in residential energy tax credits, and $7.5 million to compensate for damages caused by emergencies to property that should have been insured. All and all, over $9.5 billion in government benefits have been paid to millionaires since 2003. Millionaires also borrowed $16 million in government backed education loans to attend college. > > On average, each year, this report found that millionaires enjoy benefits from tax giveaways and federal grant programs totaling $30 billion. As a result, almost 1,500 millionaires paid no federal income tax in 2009. > > Fleecing the taxpayer while contributing nothing is not the American way. Read the whole thing. **THAT** is why we are OCCUPYING cities all across this nation. It’s about damn time that our supposedly Representative Democracy started actually representing the 99% and not just the 1%. We expect _our_ interests protected by our elected representatives. Not that we don’t want rich people’s interests protected, but we don’t want them _subsidized_ with our pennies while we break our backs for a substandard wage and CEOs take home hundreds of millions of dollars in salaries while crying poor and laying workers off rather than sharing the corporate profits in a fair and equitable manner with those who labor to bring those profits in. We want our government to go back to being “of the people, by the people, and for the people,” not “of the corporations who can buy the best legislation, by the corporations who can influence elections, and for the corporations who stand to benefit over average Americans.” Get money out of our politics. Overturn Citizens United, the most offensive piece of legislation to have been handed down in at least half a century. It flies in the face of everything this country was founded on. Everything. Rescind Gramm-Leach-Bliley and reinstate the rules that existed under Glass-Steagall so that our financial institutions can never again issue us a mortgage, bundle it up with garbage, rate it AAA, sell it to our own 401k and pension plans, then bet against the goddamn thing and in the end, **PROFIT** from the whole fucking debacle when it all comes crashing down. Raise the tax rate on passive activity income such as capital gains to equal or _above_ the rate actual labor is taxed at. It’s outrageous that a working man who labors every day to put food on the table and a roof over his family’s head is taxed at twice what wealthy investors are taxed at for doing absolutely nothing but gambling on stocks. It’s _backwards_. _“Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.” ~ Abraham Lincoln_ [Enact the Stop Trading on Congressional Knowledge Act](http://www.opencongress.org/bill/112-h1148/show) that keeps floundering since 2004, so that our legislators are bound by the same conflict of interest rules as judges and other federal employees, and can no longer [personally benefit financially by INSIDER TRADING](http://www.businessinsider.com/congressional-insider-trading-revealed-on-60-minutes-2011-11). That shit’s actually _legal_. We want it stopped. Just fucking STOP ripping us off. I don’t think any of those requests are unreasonable even from a fiscally conservative perspective. That’s what OCCUPY is about. Those of you on the right should be joining us. We’re fighting for you, too, you know. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2026 "2011-11-14T17:02:08Z")
And unleash Elizabeth Warren! ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2027 "2011-11-14T17:03:36Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And unleash Elizabeth Warren! Hear, fucking Hear! ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2028 "2011-11-14T17:07:10Z")
@Shayna: [ImageShack - Best place for all of your image hosting and image sharing needs](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/689/22687239211291aeda97o.jpg/sr=1) ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2029 "2011-11-14T17:11:20Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > @Shayna: [ImageShack - Best place for all of your image hosting and image sharing needs](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/689/22687239211291aeda97o.jpg/sr=1) What the fuck is that supposed to mean? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2030 "2011-11-14T17:13:42Z")
It’s a trap! ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2031 "2011-11-14T17:44:17Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > What the fuck is that supposed to mean? It signifies dorky approval, man. “You win one free internet for that post.” ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2032 "2011-11-14T17:44:56Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > What the fuck is that supposed to mean? I’m not **BPC** , but I think that translates to, “You not only win the thread, you win the Internet.” Anyway, I would take it as a compliment, pending further data. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2033 "2011-11-14T17:52:58Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > It signifies dorky approval, man. “You win one free internet for that post.” > [@RTFirefly](#): > > I’m not **BPC** , but I think that translates to, “You not only win the thread, you win the Internet.” > > Anyway, I would take it as a compliment, pending further data. Oooooooh. Guess my hackles were up since we’re in the Pit. I took it to mean something like, “If you believe any of that hoke you just posted, I’ve got a coupon for a free internet to give you.” :smack: Hope you’re right and I am wrong. And if so, thanks, **Budget Player Cadet**! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2034 "2011-11-14T17:53:22Z")
Occupy Detroit has its permit ending tonight. The police have been cooperative and so far zero people or cops have been hurt. The police have to start the confrontations and it is likely they will tonight. The Thanksgiving Day Parade goes past the camp and they want them gone, bleachers erected and Xmas tree lights up before 11-23. Strange the city can not service the homeless, but they can afford a parade. The homeless have been fed and sheltered for the last 6 weeks ,with no help from the authorities. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2035 "2011-11-14T18:47:55Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Oooooooh. Guess my hackles were up since we’re in the Pit. I took it to mean something like, “If you believe any of that hoke you just posted, I’ve got a coupon for a free internet to give you.” … If that were the case, then…a certain poster, who shall remain gormless…would have a ton of them! ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2036 "2011-11-14T18:57:27Z")
Yep, “you may have one free internet” is a nerdy compliment. I keep forgetting that most people here don’t visit sites that are frequented by such memes. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2037 "2011-11-14T19:12:06Z")
You mean, the kind of places that use terms like “upvote” and “karma”? Certainly not! Some of us have standards! ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2038 "2011-11-14T20:04:58Z")
Barry Ritholtz [asks](http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2011/11/a-global-view-of-the-housing-bubble/): > [@](#): > > Question: How did Europe and Asia and Canada all have a simultaneous housing boom as big if not bigger than that of the US? > > Were the Australians compelled to follow the CRA? Did Barney Frank influence the Belgians? Were the US GSEs effecting policy in the UK? > > Or might some other factors — like ultra-low rates, excess leverage, demand for junk AAA-rated paper, misaligned incentives, and/or derivatives have been at play? Any Barney/Fannie/Freddie/CRA origin theory of the housing bubble needs to have an answer to these questions. **Scylla** , of course, has never attempted such an answer. Because, you know, **RTFirefly** is a troll. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2039 "2011-11-14T20:08:52Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You mean, the kind of places that use terms like “upvote” and “karma”? Certainly not! Some of us have standards! Nah, more like the kind of places where you’re anonymous and every third post is porn. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/2040 "2011-11-14T22:23:31Z")
[http://www.truth-out.org/bank-america-makes-millions-charging-fees-withdraw-unemployment-benefits/1321294590](http://www.truth-out.org/bank-america-makes-millions-charging-fees-withdraw-unemployment-benefits/1321294590) Bank of America is charging the unemployed fees for accessing their unemployment checks. They have no problem gouging the poor. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851.md?page=101) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851.md?page=103)