# \#OccupyWallStreet **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 19, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851 "2011-09-19T18:27:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/221 "2011-10-01T13:52:48Z")
> [@Mr.Svinlesha](#): > > Well, their message is gradually coming into focus it seems: > > Read the whole declaration [here](http://nycga.cc/2011/09/30/declaration-of-the-occupation-of-new-york-city/). > > I’m beginning to wish I could make it to New York myself. Bwahahahahah! That is the fruit of the efforts of 10s of thousands of people over two weeks? The arrests, the expense, the noise, the effort, all that for that? Oh geez. One question: Who are “They?” ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/222 "2011-10-01T14:47:19Z")
I was by yesterday and I have to say, this “massive demonstration” is indistinguishable from the average lunchtime crowd in Liberty park, except for the signs. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/223 "2011-10-01T15:11:43Z")
Homework assignment for everyone on all sides: [Read Martin Luther King’s Letter From a Birmingham Jail](http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html). Devise a statement, with reference to the text and to historical and current events, that compares and contrasts the protests in Birmingham to the protests on Wall Street. I ran across this letter in a workshop yesterday, and I think it’s interesting to see how different King’s approach was to the current approach. Pay special attention to the sixth paragraph of the letter, describing the steps to nonviolent direct action. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/224 "2011-10-01T15:30:40Z")
**Scylla** : Could you do me a favor and try to be just a bit more snide and condescending? It’s not really coming through fully here on my side. - > [@](#): > > \*Then again people used to protest for equal rights, the tight to vote, and other issues with enough gravity that is arguably worth laying down your life to pursue. > > Nowadays it seems to me that people protest bullshit and nebulous things, and I get the feeling the point of a lot of protests is the experience of the protest itself.\* - This is sort of your basic objection to the Wall Street occupation, isn’t it? That the protests don’t have enough focus? That the protesters aren’t really serious about it, that they’re just there to party, to be a part of the tribe, to be able to call themselves cool and burnish their egos, that sort of thing? So let me ask a couple of hypotheticals: if the protests were more focused on one specific issue, would you have more respect for the protesters? If you felt the protesters were really serious about the issues, would you have more respect for them? > [@](#): > > _So no, I do not support the right to public protests._ This really a strange thing for an American to say. The text of the first article of the Bill of Rights reads: > [@](#): > > Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; **or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.** Are you actually saying you don’t support this right? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/225 "2011-10-01T15:34:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*You think you are going to fix these things by having a party and blocking traffic? > > Angry young people have been raging at shit they don’t understand ever since society progressed to the point where it could spoil its children.\* You seem to have assumed from the very beginning of this discussion that these kids don’t understand anything and are spoiled. Do you have any evidence beyond your own prejudices that this is the case? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/226 "2011-10-01T15:51:24Z")
> [@Mr.Svinlesha](#): > > **Scylla** : > > Could you do me a favor and try to be just a bit more snide and condescending? It’s not really coming through fully here on my side. I promise to try harder. > [@](#): > > This is sort of your basic objection to the Wall Street occupation, isn’t it? That the protests don’t have enough focus? That the protesters aren’t really serious about it, that they’re just there to party, to be a part of the tribe, to be able to call themselves cool and burnish their egos, that sort of thing? It’s an objection. [/quote] So let me ask a couple of hypotheticals: if the protests were more focused on one specific issue, would you have more respect for the protesters? If you felt the protesters were really serious about the issues, would you have more respect for them? [/quote] That’s still putting the cart before the horse. Retroactively trying figure it out or focus it, is not going to earn my respect. Different problems have different solutions. Before you start looking at a solution, you actually need to know what the problem is. Once you know what the problem is than you can start to figure out the best way to address it. These people are working backwards, doing what they want to do, and then figuring out why. I look at public protests and gatherings of this ilk as pretty extreme, and not to be invoked for petty purposes. I think the letter posted from MLK suggests this as well, and shows the gulf between these idiots and committed people taking severe steps to fight severe injustice while being fully aware of the potential consequences. So no, there is nothing these idiots can do at this point to make me take them seriously. > [@](#): > > This really a strange thing for an American to say. The text of the first article of the Bill of Rights reads: > > Are you actually saying you don’t support this right? Yeah, it is a strange thing for me to say. I’ve thought about it quite a bit these last few days. I think it might make an interesting debate. I think the right to gather and protest is no longer necessary, and I don’t think it’s being used the way those that drafted it intended. The right to protest seems to me founded on the idea that the people need to be able to show the government their pleasure or displeasure, and the government cannot insulate itself from this criticism by stopping the people from gathering and communicating it. But, there was no internet. Literacy was not common. Communication technologies did not really exist that gave people any other options than to gather and protest. Nowadays those options do exist. It seems to me that protest is not directed at the government so much, as at other citizens. People at abortion clinics are not there to get the government’s ears. They are there to communicate with, impede, scare, and intimidate people who really don’t wish to deal with them. To me, it is coercion and really a form of violence. Same thing with the Westboro baptists. It’s not directed at the government. It’s directed at people, and it specifically useful because it so violent and offensive. There are so many ways that people can gather, and communicate and share views without committing violence against or disrupting the lives of other people, who I think have a right to go about their day without being impeded and molested by people determined to feed them their “message.” So no. I think public protests should no longer be allowed. We are past the need for them technologically, and frankly they are big gun that should only be brought out for big reasons, equal rights and such. Reform of mortgage securitization regulations? Not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/227 "2011-10-01T15:59:28Z")
> [@Mr.Svinlesha](#): > > You seem to have assumed from the very beginning of this discussion that these kids don’t understand anything and are spoiled. Do you have any evidence beyond your own prejudices that this is the case? I think the manifesto they have published is absolute proof of ignorance. Also, there are maybe 10,000 people on the planet that really understand what happened in 2008. It’s sort of a self-qualifying thing. If you take the time and the effort, and you are in a position in which you understand these things, than that pretty much proves that you are not in the street protesting. 1. Probably because you are a little grayer and balder and 2. Because you understand that it is not a problem where the solution where the solution can be generated through a protest. The protesters are largely American children still engaged in the four year (or is it 5 now) intellectual vacation of self-discovery called “college,” or who have recently finished it but really haven’t got started with the realities of adult life yet. They have the money and the time to hang around Wall St. I feel pretty safe in calling them spoiled. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/228 "2011-10-01T16:18:54Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I think the right to gather and protest is no longer necessary, and I don’t think it’s being used the way those that drafted it intended. > > The right to protest seems to me founded on the idea that the people need to be able to show the government their pleasure or displeasure, and the government cannot insulate itself from this criticism by stopping the people from gathering and communicating it. > > But, there was no internet. Literacy was not common. Communication technologies did not really exist that gave people any other options than to gather and protest. > > Nowadays those options do exist. > > It seems to me that protest is not directed at the government so much, as at other citizens. People at abortion clinics are not there to get the government’s ears. They are there to communicate with, impede, scare, and intimidate people who really don’t wish to deal with them. To me, it is coercion and really a form of violence. > > Same thing with the Westboro baptists. It’s not directed at the government. It’s directed at people, and it specifically useful because it so violent and offensive. > > There are so many ways that people can gather, and communicate and share views without committing violence against or disrupting the lives of other people, who I think have a right to go about their day without being impeded and molested by people determined to feed them their “message.” > > So no. I think public protests should no longer be allowed. We are past the need for them technologically, and frankly they are big gun that should only be brought out for big reasons, equal rights and such. Reform of mortgage securitization regulations? Not so much. This is the most poorly reasoned argument I’ve seen today. It’s foundation is crappy, it’s construction is worse, and it’s conclusion is unsupported by even that combination of shit. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/229 "2011-10-01T16:27:56Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > This is the most poorly reasoned argument I’ve seen today. It’s foundation is crappy, it’s construction is worse, and it’s conclusion is unsupported by even that combination of shit. I thought your criticism’s rationale was oblique, its architecture was purple and its ad hominems were clairvoyant. You see, I can do it too! It’s fun to play with adjectives. You don’t actually say anything… but it’s fun. Come back when have counterargument, grasshopper. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/230 "2011-10-01T16:45:32Z")
So, the issue is not important enough, then? Not important enough for this sort of mass incivility and disruption to the order of things as they are, which is things as they ought to be? How many people were robbed in this most recent disaster? How many people who trusted their futures to scurrying rodents were robbed? It was like Woodstock for Wall Street, except everybody took the brown acid. Is OK to steal from people if you are smarter than they are? Are we all Social Darwinists now? “You fucked up, you trusted us. Thanks for all the money, now please keep your distance.” Not important enough? These people, not important enough? To whom? Who speaks for the victims, **Scylla**? You? We are told again and again, in tones of pious prosperity, that investment and banking are the bedrock upon which our prosperity is founded. That isn’t important enough? You are daintily disdainful of these people, with their foolish idealism. Where is your shock and revulsion for the thieves? Do you teeter on the brink of cynicism? That way lies darkness. I suppose we should be content with the stern and uncompromising efforts being made to right this wrong. Which are what, exactly? Perhaps they are too subtle for such a feeble mind as mine own, perhaps when you point them out to me, I will be content. Rather doubt it, but here’s your chance. You sneer at these people because they give a shit. Is it because you don’t? I have been where you did not go. Went down to the demonstration, to get my fair share of abuse, as the Stones put it so well. And if I have to listen to another dollar store Maya Angelou, I swear I shall go mad. And did it ever really do any good? I swear upon the grave of Eugene V. Debs, I honestly don’t know. But I must shave. And if I have to look at a man in the mirror who can’t be arsed to give a shit, to speak, to act, then I shall have to grow a disgusting neck beard, and kindly strangers will offer me small bits of money. Not to mention lessening already dwindling chances for wild, improvisational erotic encounters. You’re smarter than us? Then help us. Lead, follow, or get out of the way. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/231 "2011-10-01T17:08:55Z")
I note with pleasure the return of **Big Svin** , roused from his slumber, the virtual Viking has donned his\* ber serk\*, and unleashes the terrible power of his Hammer of Thorazine. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/232 "2011-10-01T17:12:40Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > How many people were robbed in this most recent disaster? How many people who trusted their futures to scurrying rodents were robbed? It was like Woodstock for Wall Street, except everybody took the brown acid. Is OK to steal from people if you are smarter than they are? Are we all Social Darwinists now? “You fucked up, you trusted us. Thanks for all the money, now please keep your distance.” > > Not important enough? These people, not important enough? To whom? Who speaks for the victims, **Scylla**? You? No, **Scylla** was the asshole who kept defending the bankers who fucked us all and arguing that they deserved their bonuses because of how smart and capable they all were, and how no1 else but them could get us out of the mess they got us in. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/233 "2011-10-01T17:15:47Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You’re smarter than us? Then help us. Lead, follow, or get out of the way. Helping’s for spoiled hippies. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/234 "2011-10-01T17:18:56Z")
Intelligence is a characteristic, not a virtue. A smart good man is a blessing to us all, the smart bad man a bane and a curse. A smart man who doesn’t give a rats is a powerfui force for neutrality and entropy. Hell, if intellilgence were virtue, flocks of butterflies would plague me wherever I went, songbirds would light upon my shoulders to serenade! They do not. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/235 "2011-10-01T17:23:38Z")
> **[At Countrywide, protecting mortgage fraud involved firing whistleblowers](https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2011/09/26/1020314/-At-Countrywide,-protecting-mortgage-fraud-involved-firing-whistleblowers?via=blog_1)** > > The thing about a corporation committing widespread ... A dollop of news from _DailyKos_, a notorious lefty site that may be lying, but I’ve never caught them yet. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/236 "2011-10-01T18:02:29Z")
Well, speaking for myself, I’ve achieved the blessed state of [St. George](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsFpm4yAoMQ). I wash my hands of the human race. Stick a fork up our ass and turn us over; we’re done. Like Carlin, I’m just watching as the flotsam rotates the drain, gradually circling faster, and faster, and faster… > [@](#): > > \*If you wish to effect meaningful positive change you have to put in the work to understand what it is you are talking about. > > I’ll clue you in on the credit crisis. It wasn’t one greedy group, or set of bad regulations, or any other simple thing that was responsible. The system was much too robust to be taken down by a single issue. What happened was that there was a chain of bad interracting mistakes perpetuated over decades by multiple parties in both public and private sectors in the us and abroad that culminated in a massive failure the scope of nobody anticipated. > > You want to change things? Do what I did. Get a degree in economics or finance. Spend the first 5 years of your career working 100 hours week for nothing. Climb the ladder of experience, knowledge and competence until you begin to understand the tiny little piece of the world around you over which you exert control. Then, try to make it better.\* I don’t completely disagree with you. But if your requirement for social action is that every participant has to be able to write a doctorate on the issue before they act, then there would be damn little social action. I doubt that most people who protested in Birmingham could provide you with an in-depth history of slavery and racial inequality. Many were poor, uneducated blacks, who only knew that the status quo had to change. Do you despise them for this? > [@](#): > > \*That’s still putting the cart before the horse. Retroactively trying figure it out or focus it, is not going to earn my respect… > > I look at public protests and gatherings of this ilk as pretty extreme, and not to be invoked for petty purposes. I think the letter posted from MLK suggests this as well, and shows the gulf between these idiots and committed people taking severe steps to fight severe injustice while being fully aware of the potential consequences. > > So no, there is nothing these idiots can do at this point to make me take them seriously.\* That was kind of the point of my hypothetical. Your mind is made up! Please, don’t let me confuse you with the facts. > [@](#): > > _Also, there are maybe 10,000 people on the planet that really understand what happened in 2008. It’s sort of a self-qualifying thing. If you take the time and the effort, and you are in a position in which you understand these things, than that pretty much proves that you are not in the street protesting. 1. Probably because you are a little grayer and balder and 2. Because you understand that it is not a problem where the solution where the solution can be generated through a protest._ Again, I don’t have to be an expert in all the ins and outs of precisely what happened to understand that the current status quo is unsustainable. I think we’re all dead because I look at the problems we have to solve – particularly climate change – and I look at how ineffectual we’ve been a addressing them so far, and I see that 1 + 1 = 2. As a species we simply lack the cognitive, social, political, and economic structures we need to meet these crises. At this late date this is a trivially obvious assessment. Sorry. And if you really think you’re going to accomplish the kind of radical changes we’re going to need in order to survive as a species with your little screwdriver, well, more power to you. All the above does not mean that I despise people who’ve come to a different conclusion. On the contrary. I admire those kids sitting in protest at Wall Street. At least they’re trying. And if they manage to convince me that they can actually affect serious change, I’ll get out there, roll up my sleeves and get to work. I for one have been impressed with their tenacity. I never thought they’d last a week. They’re into their third now. They’ve received the endorsement of a couple of important unions. Their manifest is spot on; I don’t disagree with a single point in it. I don’t understand why you’re so disdainful of it. Again, it’s a statement of general principles, not a thesis. The Declaration of Independence didn’t explain in-depth the social and economic conditions which lead to an oppressive colonial system, but it is still a revered political document. I’m open and curious to see where this might lead, and willing to at least give it a chance. Better than wasting my time arguing with **Sam Stone** about aluminum tubes, that’s for damn sure. My big worry is that the movement is so grassroots and democratic. If there’s anything that could fuck up a wet dream, it’s other people. Oh, and I wanted to share another video as well, one which I think sums up quite clearly what we’re up against – in case you haven’t seen it. [Enjoy](http://www.disinfo.com/2011/09/goldman-sachs-rules-the-world/). ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/237 "2011-10-01T18:20:35Z")
I skipped ahead. Has anyone used the Simpson’s protest chant: WHAT DO WE WANT? The gradual elimination of animal testing over the next three years! WHEN DO WE WANT IT? Over the next three years. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/238 "2011-10-01T18:24:52Z")
> [@Mr.Svinlesha](#): > > Oh, and I wanted to share another video as well, one which I think sums up quite clearly what we’re up against – in case you haven’t seen it. [Enjoy](http://www.disinfo.com/2011/09/goldman-sachs-rules-the-world/). There are like ten of those guys on CNBC, Bloomberg, or CNBC, every week, each of them selling a different doomsday scenario, a different conspiracy. Im not impressed with the gentleman’s nonspecific but ominous predictions. “Bad things coming…” Really? wow. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/239 "2011-10-01T18:49:21Z")
**elucidator** : Greetings, old friend, from the cold white north! I actually surf in and read threads pretty regularly, and am always delighted by your witty and erudite posts. I’m the kinda poster, however, who doesn’t really post unless he’s got something to say, which isn’t all that often. But I keep track, sir, I keep track! 🙂 **Scylla** : You know a bit more about finance than I do, so I’m genuinely curious: what’s your read on the state of the world economy? What would it mean if the Euro were to “fail”? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/240 "2011-10-01T18:56:19Z")
CNN had crawl saying financial pros declare a revisit of the repression is neigh. We are about to enter a double dip. …really. The crash was done by the fucking bankers . It was permitted to happen by politicians who removed regulation like Glass/Steagal, and many others. Then gutting the regulating agencies, so whatever regulation was possible would not be done. This crisis was put on a batting tee so the bankers could hit it hard. They sure as hell did. They looted the world financial system out of trillions and then declared that we had to trust them to fix it because they were so smart. The pricks should have been put in jail or at least canned. They destroyed banks and gave themselves bonuses for doing such a good job. It was out of our tax money. Where the hell else would you march to send the message? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851.md?page=13)