# \#OccupyWallStreet **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 19, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851 "2011-09-19T18:27:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/261 "2011-10-01T23:49:47Z")
> [@Mr.Svinlesha](#): > > You keep pointing out that this is an incredibly complex problem, that it is difficult to understand and can’t be easily solved, while simultaneously complaining that the protesters don’t have a simple, cohesive motto or solution to this complex problem. You realize these two positions contradict each other, yes? No. That is why I said it was not a problem for protests. You left the whole part out where I talked about the right tool for the job, and protests by their nature really need to stand for something pretty straightforward. This being a complex problem aren’t the right tool. That’s what I said. > [@](#): > > But one change they obviously wish to effect is to reduce the power and influence of corporations in the American political system. Is that simple enough for you? Ok. Sure. That’s pretty good in fact. Except they didn’t say that, or come up with it, **you** did. You have just proven yourself to be smarter than the totality of all those dipshits and all their efforts spanning several weeks. In five minutes you come up with something better. Not to take anything away from your propaganda generating powers but that’s a sad statement on these morons, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/262 "2011-10-01T23:54:15Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > Can you provide specific details around this Barney Frank narrative? I know he wasn’t head of the Finance committee until 2007, and I also know that overside of Fannie/Freddie didn’t reside in Congress at all. So even if he vigorously defended them, can you explain the actual causality? > > Thanks in advance. This is a kind of right wing cite: > **[Barney Frank and Chuck Schumer’s Role in the Fannie Mae Failure](https://americaswatchtower.com/2008/09/17/barney-frank-and-chuck-schumers-role-the-fannie-mae-failure/)** > > Below is an editorial that appeared in the New Hampshire Union Leader that talks about Barney Frank and Chuck Schumer and their roles in the failure of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Here is the edito… You can google “Barney Frank, fannie mae” and read about it to your heart’s content. Here’s a whole bunch of him in his own words: > **[Google](https://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbm=vid&q=barney+frank+fannie&revid=897614298&sa=X&ei=2aeHTpG8Aenx0gHAzOTpDw&ved=0CDwQ1QIoCA&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=d913f05cca2ff510&biw=1437&bih=993)** > > Search the world's information, including webpages, images, videos and more. Google has many special features to help you find exactly what you're looking for. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/263 "2011-10-02T00:02:37Z")
Care to address the relative contribution of repealing Glass-Stegal? Or Alan Greenspan, who presciently made his “irrational exuberance speech” then didn’t follow up. And how would you then rank Barney Frank compared to the above? And if you play the “blame Barney” card as the main contributor, how does he compare with Christopher Dodds? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/264 "2011-10-02T00:05:19Z")
When we’re done with Barney Frank we can than attack government in general. Remember, this did not arise out of something Corporations did. This whole artificial market was invented and run by the government. They created Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and funded them, and then privatized them so that it became a landing place for government cronies. They were set up with a deal that was so good is impossible to fuck up, but they did it anyway. Then, I guess when we are done with the government we can work our way down to the corporate abuses. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/265 "2011-10-02T00:18:21Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > This is a kind of right wing cite: > > [Barney Frank and Chuck Schumer’s Role in the Fannie Mae Failure | America's Watchtower](http://americaswatchtower.com/2008/09/17/barney-frank-and-chuck-schumers-role-the-fannie-mae-failure/) > You can google “Barney Frank, fannie mae” and read about it to your heart’s content. > Here’s a whole bunch of him in his own words: > > [Google](http://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbm=vid&q=barney+frank+fannie&revid=897614298&sa=X&ei=2aeHTpG8Aenx0gHAzOTpDw&ved=0CDwQ1QIoCA&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=d913f05cca2ff510&biw=1437&bih=993) Thanks, I read the cite but didn’t do anything with the google links. The cite didn’t really answer my question, though - I understand Frank was an idiot about Fannie/Freddie, but other than the vague ‘pressuring regulators’ what did he actually do? What oversight did he block, particularly before he was even in charge of the Finance Committee in 2007? And what was the mechanism for that? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/266 "2011-10-02T00:18:26Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > Care to address the relative contribution of repealing Glass-Stegal? My opinion was that it really didn’t matter all that much as the distinction between banks and brokerages was already getting blurred. It seems to me the repeal of that part of the act more or less rubber stamped a reality. > [@](#): > > Or Alan Greenspan, who presciently made his “irrational exuberance speech” then didn’t follow up. Without rewatching that speech, I thought it was about how the economy was getting overheated and the stock market was too high. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but I didn’t really interpret that in terms of mortgage backed securities. > [@](#): > > And how would you then rank Barney Frank compared to the above? Oh, I really don’t think he’s that terrible. I just figure that if we are looking for blame, blaming corporate america or fat cat banks is kind of stupid when we have Barney Frank. It’s really more accurate to go after him for this, if we are going to go after somebody. A lot of corporations got fucked in this, too. A lot of investors in those corporations lost their money, and a lot of people lost their jobs. It wasn’t all, or even first, the corporations that caused the debacle. > [@](#): > > And if you play the “blame Barney” card as the main contributor, how does he compare with Christopher Dodds? Dodds was not such a great guy in this, either. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/267 "2011-10-02T00:23:17Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > Thanks, I read the cite but didn’t do anything with the google links. The cite didn’t really answer my question, though - I understand Frank was an idiot about Fannie/Freddie, but other than the vague ‘pressuring regulators’ what did he actually do? What oversight did he block, particularly before he was even in charge of the Finance Committee in 2007? And what was the mechanism for that? You are asking good questions and you deserve better answers than I a going to give you. My context for bringing this whole thing up, is not that I have an especial hard on for Frank, but that it is weird that if we are looking for villains, we would bypass him and shift immediately to the “they” of corporate america. I’m not really looking to have a debate about Frank, or put much effort into showing how he fucked up. Watch the speeches if you like. He basically convinved everybody that everything was fine, just fine while it clearly wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/268 "2011-10-02T00:29:19Z")
Scylla, I know you’re in the finance industry but to say that the finance industry has no culpability and didn’t take a situation and made it exponentially worse is pure fantasy. Risk management was pathetic at the banks. AIG through pure ignorance AIG FP to mis-price the cost of insurance and ended up costing how many hundreds of billions of bailout? Lehman Brothers put huge amounts of crap off balance sheet. If you look at how much the Fed bailed out the entire banking sector, Morgan, Goldman, Merrill, etc were just days away from bankruptcy. It’s also clear that without the investment banks intermediating mortgages and global investors via CDO’s (aka exploding radio-active derivative crap), the entire global leveraging of the US market would not have reached anywhere near the proportions that occured. RE Greenspan. That speech started a whole chain of unintended consequences. He made the speech and the markets didn’t self correct, the Asian crisis occurred in 1997 and was quickly followed by the Russian Crisis in 1998 (remember that one? bankrupted UBS and forced the merger between Swiss Bank Corp and UBS), the accomodating central bank stance to get through those as a soft landing set the stage for the internet bubble. the internet bubble was fueled in large part by refinancing home mortgages/reducing mortgage equity, and driving up consumer spending. Then we got into the whole CDO mess. Not to be oversimplistic, but if Greenspan had tightened when there was a lot of slack in the system when he called the bubble and the problem in late 1996, he would have avoided the situation of “we should be tightening but because of various crises we need to be accomodating” situations that morphed to where we are today. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/269 "2011-10-02T00:42:47Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > Scylla, I know you’re in the finance industry but to say that the finance industry has no culpability and didn’t take a situation and made it exponentially worse is pure fantasy. Yes, and it’s a good thing I didn’t make that argument. I just suggested that if we wished to cast blame we need to start in the proper place and work downward. > [@](#): > > Risk management was pathetic at the banks. AIG through pure ignorance AIG FP to mis-price the cost of insurance and ended up costing how many hundreds of billions of bailout? Lehman Brothers put huge amounts of crap off balance sheet. If you look at how much the Fed bailed out the entire banking sector, Morgan, Goldman, Merrill, etc were just days away from bankruptcy. Yes, there is plenty of blame to go around, and I don’t suggest that banks and corporations aren’t culpable. I’m surprised by these protesters and other idiots who seem to think that the corporations are the main, or even only villain here. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/270 "2011-10-02T00:51:04Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > RE Greenspan. That speech started a whole chain of unintended consequences. He made the speech and the markets didn’t self correct, the Asian crisis occurred in 1997 and was quickly followed by the Russian Crisis in 1998 (remember that one? bankrupted UBS and forced the merger between Swiss Bank Corp and UBS), the accomodating central bank stance to get through those as a soft landing set the stage for the internet bubble. the internet bubble was fueled in large part by refinancing home mortgages/reducing mortgage equity, and driving up consumer spending. Then we got into the whole CDO mess. Not to be oversimplistic, but if Greenspan had tightened when there was a lot of slack in the system when he called the bubble and the problem in late 1996, he would have avoided the situation of “we should be tightening but because of various crises we need to be accomodating” situations that morphed to where we are today. That’s a pretty interesting stance, and one I’ve heard before. The problem is it confers nearly omniscient powers of foresight upon Greenspan, and takes his argument and places it into a different context than I think he meant. I think he thought things were getting a little too fast in the current cycle, that’s all. I don’t think he was anticipating the disasters to come. That’s attributing pretty superhuman powers to the guy. But, you are right that had he been able to see the next ten years, if he was referring to the next ten years in that speech, well then, yeah, he could have helped to avert it. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/271 "2011-10-02T00:58:11Z")
You miss the point on Greenspan. He saw it and didn’t do anything. Then later crisis forces his hand to be accomodating when he should have been restrictive ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/272 "2011-10-02T01:08:07Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > You miss the point on Greenspan. He saw it and didn’t do anything. Then later crisis forces his hand to be accomodating when he should have been restrictive I don’t think he saw what you think. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/273 "2011-10-02T01:20:36Z")
I don’t think you were in finance industry at that point in time. FWIW,I was in the finance industry from 1991 - 98 in Tokyo and Hong Kong. I saw first hand one of the best risk management operations (Swiss Bank Corp and the O’Connor Partners), and I saw one of the worst (Lehman’s - go figure). Greenspan fucked up and started the painting himself into a corner that he eventually never got out of. I don’t accrue him with 10 year vision but not lancing the boil by early 1997 eventually became significant to the great reset. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/274 "2011-10-02T01:27:46Z")
Reports coming in of ‘hundreds’ of arrests in New York. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/275 "2011-10-02T01:29:35Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > I don’t think you were in finance industry at that point in time. FWIW,I was in the finance industry from 1991 - 98 in Tokyo and Hong Kong. I saw first hand one of the best risk management operations (Swiss Bank Corp and the O’Connor Partners), and I saw one of the worst (Lehman’s - go figure). > > Greenspan fucked up and started the painting himself into a corner that he eventually never got out of. I don’t accrue him with 10 year vision but not lancing the boil by early 1997 eventually became significant to the great reset. I started with Lehman as a trader’s assistant in Mortgage backed securities in '89, and have been around every since. I hear what you are saying, but I disagree with your thesis that he recognized the extent of what was to come. Then too, is the argument about the role of the Fed and the fed chairman. What Greenspan did, the extent of his interference, was unprecedented at that time in terms of its verbal activism. I think that might have been a mistake as it kind of conferred this belief that the Fed had this responsibility to manage and oversea the entire economy, which exists to this day. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/276 "2011-10-02T01:32:33Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Reports coming in of ‘hundreds’ of arrests in New York. Blocking traffic. This reinforces my point. Protesting today isn’t about reaching the government, its about reaching people by being an pain in the ass. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/277 "2011-10-02T01:39:26Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I started with Lehman as a trader’s assistant in Mortgage backed securities in '89, and have been around every since. I hear what you are saying, but I disagree with your thesis that he recognized the extent of what was to come. Then too, is the argument about the role of the Fed and the fed chairman. What Greenspan did, the extent of his interference, was unprecedented at that time in terms of its verbal activism. I think that might have been a mistake as it kind of conferred this belief that the Fed had this responsibility to manage and oversea the entire economy, which exists to this day. There were lots of economists who fought what Greenspan advocated. There were politicians who fought against gutting regulation and ending Glass/Steagal. There was not universal agreement on Greenspan. There sure was on TV though. Do you know how many books came out predicting the bust? I am sure on Wall street there was very little objection. they were making a killing. That makes you blind. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/278 "2011-10-02T01:53:25Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I started with Lehman as a trader’s assistant in Mortgage backed securities in '89, and have been around every since. … Greenspan is a pimp. But I didn’t know until this day that it was **Scylla** , all along. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/279 "2011-10-02T02:01:14Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Protesting today isn’t about reaching the government, its about reaching people by being an pain in the ass. It’s about reaching the media. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/280 "2011-10-02T02:02:20Z")
Nobody’s gonna take my assignment re: MLK’s letter, eh? Oh well. I’ll do it myself. On the surface, there appear to be parallels between his defense for the Birmingham protests and the OWS protests, and his indictment of his fellow clergymen may appear to apply equally to folks who criticize the OWS protests. However, on closer reading, the differences between his strategy and the strategy (or lack thereof) of the current protestors, really crystallized for me why I think OWS is at best a quixotic effort and at worst actually counterproductive in the very laudable and urgent effort to bring financial institutions to heel. In order for a protest to be defensible, it need to be disciplined, media-savvy, and focused toward a specific goal. I cannot support a protest that appears to be a vaguely political puppet-show led by people who complain about the lack of media attention and who are only able to come up with a vague mission statement a week after the protest begins. And these latest arrests [demonstrate exactly what I’m talking about](http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/01/police-arresting-protesters-on-brooklyn-bridge/?hp): > [@](#): > > [M]any protesters said that they thought the police had tricked and trapped them, allowing them onto the bridge and even escorting them across, only to surround them in orange netting after hundreds of them had entered. > > “The cops watched and did nothing, indeed, seemed to guide us on to the roadway,” said Jesse A. Myerson, a media coordinator for Occupy Wall Street who was in the march but was not arrested. Dude, if you’re in a protest, and you break a law, and they arrest you, and you’re not expecting to get arrested, **you’re doing it wrong**. You can’t seriously say that you thought it was okay to march in traffic without a permit. I just don’t believe you. And if you thought that was legal, your judgment is so fatally flawed that I’m not interested in any of your other opinions. If you marched in traffic in a deliberate effort to get arrested, then sure: that can be an element of protest. It’s still not enough to make your protest worthwhile (reread [MLK’s letter](http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html) to see what else you need to do), but at least you don’t come across as a naive idiot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851.md?page=15)