# \#OccupyWallStreet **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 19, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851 "2011-09-19T18:27:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/441 "2011-10-04T19:40:53Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Wall Street - Incredibly Productive, Highly Beneficial, Totally Blameless! Wait a second. Are you telling me that all of a suddent investment bankers and traders just became super greedy? > [@elucidator](#): > > Do we not have a right to assemble and petition for a redress of grievance? Or is this right somehow less significant, of less importance, than the orderly movement of traffic? Yes. Why should regular people just going about their business have to suffer because a bunch of dirtbag hippie wanabees who probably wouldn’t be working anyway regardless of the state of the economy feel like blocking traffic? > [@RTFirefly](#): > > OK, you mean your [Open Letter to Paul Krugman](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=624014). My dad loves your shit. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/442 "2011-10-04T19:48:30Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Why even bring it up, **Lefty?** For starters, how many people are we talking about, here? When you use the inclusive “they” you mean all of them, more or less, yes? > > What is your evidence that this is so? is there polling, somewhere, that says 70% of them complain about being arrested? 80%? What? Are you offering your intuition as evidence? Whats, to quote someone else, amattawityou? You’re asking totally irrelevant questions again. The answer to your first question is, of course, **the ones complaining**. The percentage has nothing to do with what I’m saying. You’re trying to fight a totally irrelevant point. > [@](#): > > Do we not have a right to assemble and petition for a redress of grievance? Or is this right somehow less significant, of less importance, than the orderly movement of traffic? Let’s turn this around. What do YOU think? do YOU think that we should have some sort of law saying, “it’s okay to block traffic as long as you’re doing it as part of a protest”? How would you phrase such a law? > [@](#): > > Proportion, **Lefty** , proportion! If they can use traffic laws to disperse us at their discretion, to silence us, they will. I don’t require noble self-sacrifice, or martyrdom, I require that they give a shit. They can only do that **if you’re protesting in the middle of the Brooklyn Bridge**. Put your feet on places designed for feet, not on places designed for tires, and they can’t stop you. Again, it’s as if your kindergarten teacher woefully failed in his duties to you. > [@](#): > > And if my sarcasm and modus offend your delicate sensibilities, don’t read it. My names right up top there, no stealth snark is likely. Just pass it by. I’ll get over it. They don’t offend me. They’re insubstantive. Do YOU think you’re arguing substantively? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/443 "2011-10-04T20:06:43Z")
Substantive enough for you to evade the point by claiming irrelevance. You are upset at the hypocrisy of compaining about being arrested. Well, OK, how many are doing that? Enough to discredit the entire gathering? Or no? And if there is no such point, no number of whiners that would discredit their actions, then isn’t your point irrelevent, rather than mine? And even were it true, so what? Even if the vast majority are whining tittybabies, they don’t have the same rights as persons of sterling character and stoic resolve, like you and I? First you claimed that none of them said they were tricked, I showed you that was wrong. Reasonably enough, you say if that is true, you will withdraw some of your criticism. May one ask, ever so politely, what effort you have made to determine the truth of that? And what is the result of your investigation? > [@](#): > > …Put your feet on places designed for feet, not on places designed for tires, and they can’t stop you… Really? I guess you’re right, the cops have to obey the law, they’re the cops! I wonder who Tony Bologna’s kindergarten teacher was? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/444 "2011-10-04T20:15:40Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > That’s a great question. I need don’t think industrial of consumer demand for actual physical gold has just changed all that much. It’s used in some industrial processes, for some electronics, and, of course, jewelry. Then there are some gold bugs who wish to hold physical gold themselves. A lot of these are dissuaded by the actual cost of having the gold assure should they ever wish to sell it in the future. So, for physical gold, I would say the actual demand has remained fairly steady. That is, not changing an awful lot. > > The price of securitized gold as measured by spot price has quadrupled over the last five or six years. > > So, there’s steady demand in the underlying asset fueling speculation. Your perception of the market is markedly different from mine–I’ve seen the price of industrial gold rise significantly (doesn’t affect my company directly, but affects our largest clients directly), and everyone who’s got any qualifications to talk about it has been discussing the steep rise in demand for consumer gold and gold securities in the last few years. Part of it driven by increasing jewelry demand overseas, and some smaller portion from goldbugs. I’d characterize that as steadily rising demand, which absolutely will produce a bubble in some cases. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/445 "2011-10-04T20:21:10Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Wait a second. Are you telling me that all of a suddent investment bankers and traders just became super greedy? Not only super greedy, but virtually devoid of any benefit to the broader economy! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/446 "2011-10-04T20:33:30Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Substantive enough for you to evade the point by claiming irrelevance. This has got to be the dumbest logic in the history of dumb logic. No, my claiming your point is irrelevant is not evidence of the point’s substantiveness. Just no. > [@](#): > > First you claimed that none of them said they were tricked, This, however, is such cavalier disregard for the truth that I consider it a lie (or, if you prefer, a Dubya lie). What I actually said was > [@me](#): > > 1. No protestor has come forward saying that a police officer told them that the default law didn’t apply… You responded by showing a protestor who **vaguely claimed** that the police **seemed to be leading them** onto the bridge. Oooh, tricky tricky! The cops in their Machiavellian fiendishness WARNED THE PROTESTORS NOT TO WALK ON THE BRIDGE as part of their scheme to get the protestors to walk on the bridge! You continue in this fundamentally dishonest vein of misrepresenting what I’m saying. Show a little integrity, please, and maybe we can continue this discussion. And no, that’s not a rhetorical flourish. You’re being dishonest, and it’s shameful. ---
**Author:** ![FE3O4ENAIL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ba9def/32.png) [@FE3O4ENAIL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FE3O4ENAIL)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/447 "2011-10-04T20:39:41Z")
What could be a “refuse to move to the back of the bus” or “sit at the whites only lunch counter” moment in this movement? That is what I would like to see. We’ve seen the firehoses (well, pepper spray). ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/448 "2011-10-04T20:53:03Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Your perception of the market is markedly different from mine–I’ve seen the price of industrial gold rise significantly (doesn’t affect my company directly, but affects our largest clients directly), and everyone who’s got any qualifications to talk about it has been discussing the steep rise in demand for consumer gold and gold securities in the last few years. Part of it driven by increasing jewelry demand overseas, and some smaller portion from goldbugs. I’d characterize that as steadily rising demand, which absolutely will produce a bubble in some cases. I’ll defer to your expertise on the matter of gold. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/449 "2011-10-04T21:03:05Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > I really don’t get the whining about the arrests, I thought getting arrested was an integral part of the civil disobedience experience. You think wrongly. It is no fun getting arrested in a demonstration. It is not done on a lark. You recognize the danger when you decide to join. You hope your march will send the prez a message that the people want action taken against the people who caused the financial mess. It is projecting your vote with your feet. It is telling the politicians how you feel about their policies. They ignore emails and phone calls. If you think getting brutalized by the police is fun. you haven’t had the thrill. It is not fun. It is not a game. People who think there are a bunch of shallow kids marching should go look at a march. it is people like you taking risks to help you .People who are too comfortable and chicken to take risks. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/450 "2011-10-04T22:03:11Z")
I take back what I said about your taste in science fiction. You’ve probably got bookshelves full of Andre Norton, Dean Koontz and Heinlein. _Feh!_ Yeah, I know, pretty rough, but he called me a liar. There is some shit I will not eat. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/451 "2011-10-04T22:49:30Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > You hope your march will send the prez a message that the people want action taken against the people who caused the financial mess. It is projecting your vote with your feet. It is telling the politicians how you feel about their policies. They ignore emails and phone calls. > If you think getting brutalized by the police is fun. you haven’t had the thrill. It is not fun. It is not a game. > People who think there are a bunch of shallow kids marching should go look at a march. it is people like you taking risks to help you .People who are too comfortable and chicken to take risks. Kind of a serious question, but why do you think **now**? I mean the mortgage crisis was in 2008. This is almost 2012. The executive suites of most of the large banks have been swept out, some several times. Merrill went through two CEOs and the B of A went through two more. If you look through the annual reports, basically none of the guys that you can hold responsible for '08 are running anything. What you have left are the guys holding the bag, trying to right the wrongs and rebuild the companies after they’ve lost 90% or more of their value. It seems… Late. Also, the idea that its like 5-6 guys or corporate america, or what have you. In some cases here, you got bad judgement and culpability from the top of the food chain in Congress, through the GSE’s the investment banks, the mortgage banks, the mortgage originators, and the guys signing their names two loans they can’t pay. There are a **lot** of fucking people that fucked up. And, a lot of them have paid some serious consequences. So now, 3 + years later when we’re still trying to rebuild, when we are facing serious economic problems that may well exceed the mortgage crisis in their scope and capacity for damage coming out of Europe… now? Now these yahoos want to protest? I saw tape on Jimmy Kimmel and photos today. Yesterday they were chanting “What do we want?” “We’re not really sure!” “When do we want it?” “Right now?” Today, i saw pictures of guys dressed up like zombies. People are dancing having a good time. Even CNN has remarked at the lack of purpose. I find the manifesto laughable. I mean seriously, they left out saving the whales, but that’s about it, and if they don’t save the whales, I say fuck 'em. I guess what I am saying is that there is already a couple of reasons why I find it hard to take them seriously. The fact that they don’t seem to be taking themselves seriously doesn’t help either. 3+ years later? Really? ---
**Author:** ![jlzania](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/67e7ee/32.png) [@jlzania](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jlzania)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/452 "2011-10-04T22:50:43Z")
**Scylla** -I’m days late and pages behind but I wanted to briefly address your notion that I’m some kind of young dewy idealist. I’m a farmer and I have very limited computer time which is why I generally prefer to lurk. Not that I think you’ve been waiting breathlessly for my reply or anything. > [@](#): > > Scylla You want to change things? Do what I did. Get a degree in economics or finance. Spend the first 5 years of your career working 100 hours week for nothing. Climb the ladder of experience, knowledge and competence until you begin to understand the tiny little piece of the world around you over which you exert control. Then, try to make it better… > > "Victory goes to he who takes the time to read the instruction manual and then gets to work with a screwdriver. Although I didn’t get anything as impressive as a degree in finance, my husband and I have built a modestly sucessful pastured poultry business in central Texas-humanely raised meat broilers that are antibiotic and hormone free. Chicken that won’t kill you that actually tastes like chicken. We have one fulltime employee that we pay a living wage. (I can’t afford to give him health insurance yet but someday I hope to make that happen.) We are keeping a local feed store in business-we’re 45% of his total weekly sales right now. Most of our money goes directly back to the local economy. Nobody gets exploited in my business, fossil fuel usage is minimum, our rotating pasture model sustains the land, people get fed. And I can use a screwdriver, eviscerate a chicken in under a minute, drive a tractor, use a drill, build a field pen, track a predator, and direct market chickens to some of the best restaurants in Austin. I can’t offer up a sophisticated analysis of the economy like you can. All I know is this: I know friends my age, people that have spent their lives working for major corporation,have watched their retirement account vanish in the last five years. I know that a lot of my farmers market clients are struggling to find fulltime work. I know that the vets I’ve met through the peace movement with PTSD have been fucked six ways to Sunday on their benefits. I do know that schools are closing in Austin or slashing programs. I know hardworking people that have lost their health insurance. I could go on but I think you know these people too. I didn’t have much hope for the junior senator from Illinois after he screwed us on public finance and FISA but I saw a lot of young people work their asses off for him only to become completely disillusioned. Now I see them taking to the streets and it makes me glad. And **LHOD** , I’m sorry that the current protestors aren’t organized enough for you. I’m sorry that their demands aren’t coherent enough. But ya gotta start somewhere. And I suspect that you’re the sort of person that would prefer a revolution you can’t dance to. Did you know that the Selma to Montegomery march wasn’t supposed to happen either? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/453 "2011-10-04T23:32:59Z")
> [@jlzania](#): > > And **LHOD** , I’m sorry that the current protestors aren’t organized enough for you. > I’m sorry that their demands aren’t coherent enough. > But ya gotta start somewhere. > And I suspect that you’re the sort of person that would prefer a revolution you can’t dance to. > Did you know that the Selma to Montegomery march wasn’t supposed to happen either? Yeah, and my mother dresses me funny, too. Got any more of them? I’m happy to have a revolution I can dance to. I don’t, however, mistake the afterparty for the main event. **luci** , if you won’t put up with being called a liar, **have some fucking integrity** , stop misrepresenting what I say so egregiously, and apologize. Then maybe we can talk. Until then, forget it. ---
**Author:** ![jlzania](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/67e7ee/32.png) [@jlzania](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jlzania)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/454 "2011-10-04T23:47:06Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Yeah, and my mother dresses me funny, too. Got any more of them? > > I’m happy to have a revolution I can dance to. I don’t, however, mistake the afterparty for the main event. How did you know it’s the afterparty and not the beginning of a real movement to take back our republic? Maybe the start of some real hope and change? Over 1,500 people in serious business garb with serious credentials got arrested a few weeks ago with almost zero media coverage. At least Occupy Together is getting a little attention. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/455 "2011-10-04T23:55:22Z")
As a counterexample, a well-thought-out bit of protest [looks like this](http://southernequality.org/2011/10/breaking-we-do-campaign-launches-in-asheville-nc/). After some planning involving media outreach, a clear message, and a well-chosen couple to spearhead the protest, a local organization that promotes GLBT rights in the South got two of its members–a longterm lesbian couple–to apply for a marriage certificate in a local courthouse. They’ve followed up with more couples doing the same thing. This is in the middle of a drive to create an anti-gay-marriage amendment in the state. I’m not saying it’ll succeed, but look at what they’re doing: 1. They’re dressing for the cameras, making it harder for people to dismiss them. 2. They’re doing this action after they’ve tried and failed at negotiation. 3. They’re setting up the clear moral differences between themselves and their opposition. 4. They have very clear, specific demands. These are all key elements of an effective protest. It may be that at some point OWS will achieve some of these elements, but so far they’re failing on all four counts. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/456 "2011-10-05T01:40:55Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > … Until then, forget it. Devastated. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/457 "2011-10-05T09:19:29Z")
> [@jlzania](#): > > How did you know it’s the afterparty and not the beginning of a real movement to take back our republic? The distinct lack of rubble or fires. You can’t smash the state by playing hacky sack. ---
**Author:** ![jlzania](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/67e7ee/32.png) [@jlzania](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jlzania)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/458 "2011-10-05T10:02:31Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > The distinct lack of rubble or fires. You can’t smash the state by playing hacky sack. I have to assume you’re being facetious. The state won’t be smashed-hell, it won’t even be dented-by any sort of violent protest. That just opens the door for swift and bloody suppression. I think what the head of the teacher’s union in NYC,President Michael Mulgrew, is quoted as saying sums it up rather nicely: > [@](#): > > The way our society is now headed it does not work for 99% of people, so when Occupy Wall Street started … they kept to it and they’ve been able to create a national conversation It begins with a dialogue. Who knows where it may end? Could fizzle out two days from now. Could become the start of a third party movement. Could be the beginning of real global change. I don’t know. What I do know is that we can’t go on devastating the planet and exploiting peoples and waging wars and expect to remain unaffected for much longer. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/459 "2011-10-05T10:03:56Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Kind of a serious question, but why do you think **now**? I mean the mortgage crisis was in 2008. This is almost 2012. > > The executive suites of most of the large banks have been swept out, some several times. Merrill went through two CEOs and the B of A went through two more. If you look through the annual reports, basically none of the guys that you can hold responsible for '08 are running anything. > > What you have left are the guys holding the bag, trying to right the wrongs and rebuild the companies after they’ve lost 90% or more of their value. > > It seems… Late. I can’t speak to the question of who got swept out and who got to stay just yet; no time to look up 10-Ks before I get ready for work. But: 1. Maybe it’s late because people really did expect the President and Congress to fix the economic system beyond just a Band-Aid on the banking system. Finally, after 2.5 years of 9+% unemployment, some people are realizing that the cavalry isn’t coming, and if they want infantry, it’s gotta be them. 2. As Barry Ritholtz notes, a big reason for the drop in value of the Big Banks is the opacity of their balance sheets. They leaned on Congress to get rid of mark-to-market, so they’ve got piles of what Atrios used to call the Big Shitpile whose real values may or may not have anything to do with what they could have gotten in a sale anytime over the past coupla years. Investors are afraid that they’ve just covered up their problems rather than dealing with them, and the valuations reflect that fear. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/460 "2011-10-05T12:23:58Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > The executive suites of most of the large banks have been swept out, some several times. Merrill went through two CEOs and the B of A went through two more. If you look through the annual reports, basically none of the guys that you can hold responsible for '08 are running anything. > > What you have left are the guys holding the bag, trying to right the wrongs and rebuild the companies Some suppiorting cites on this would be worthwhile. And more than just a magazine article saying there’s a new top dog at Morgan Stanley or Goldman Sachs, at Citigroup or B of A.. If 2/3 of the top 15-20 guys from 2007 are still there, then that hardly qualifies as sweeping out the executive suites. If you _can’t_ give us something to show that there really has been a clean sweep of these guys’ top floors, there’s no reason for us to believe it. Cites, please. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851.md?page=24)