# \#OccupyWallStreet **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 19, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851 "2011-09-19T18:27:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2011, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/41 "2011-09-19T23:42:14Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, are you sure your contempt for lefties isn’t just your contempt for people? I just got polled by Rasmussen today, and one of the questions was something like, “Who do you trust more with our country’s future: the American people, or politicians? Press 1 for the American people. Press 2 for politicians. Press 3 if you’re not sure.” It was one of my few #3 presses. So yeah, I suppose I have some contempt for people at large. But this particular type of stupidity seems especially concentrated in the left, AFAICT. (And you’re right: a willingness to swallow total astroturf movements as grassroots is much more concentrated on the right, AFAICT, and if someone pitted the Tea Party for their astroturf astroroots, I’d similarly get annoyed at someone who tried to equate it to leftist idiocy). > [@](#): > > Lefty ain’t for the weak, apathy is for the weak. We could use your help, if you’ve nothing better to do. Comrade, I teach in a district that’s about 50% low-income, and I’m currently setting up a unit studying the intersections between ground cover, erosion, water pollution, and development, and how students can work to mitigate erosion along local rivers. That IS how I’m helping the cause, and incidentally it means I DO have something better to do this Saturday than operate a giant puppet down Wall Street as I look for a quixotic cause: I have lesson plans to write and papers to grade. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2011, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/42 "2011-09-19T23:47:47Z")
“What do we want?” “More equitable treatment at the hands of management!” “When do we want it?” “SOON!” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/43 "2011-09-19T23:49:13Z")
An addendum of my career path may be instructive (or may just be idle back-pattery). Starting with my college graduation, I’ve worked (with a few stupid foodservice/tempt jobs elided): -On an organic farm for room (a barn loft that lacked glass on the windows or any plumbing), food, and $25/week for about 60 hours/week; -At a hippie “co-op” bakery in which no employee had been allowed to purchase a share for nearly a decade; -For an attorney who specialized in helping people appeal denial of benefits from Social Security or Veteran’s Affairs; -For a mercifully brief period writing materials on how to market things on the Internet for a major computer manufacturer; -For a nonprofit that nominally specialized in helping the working poor organize, and really seemed to specialize in organizing sweet all-expense-paid vacations for leaders of other nonprofits under the guise of conferences; -For a humane society; -For a public school. I’ve gone from the obvious lefty workplaces through a series of ones that slowly and in a crooked line moved toward a workplace where I think I can actually make a positive difference in the world. As **luci** said, being lefty ain’t for the weak–except it clearly is for the weakminded, as the objects of the OP, and so so many others through my life, have amply demonstrated. If I harbor a special loathing for them, it’s because I’ve felt so betrayed by them. ---
**Author:** ![Lago\_Ys-Transform](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a587f6/32.png) [@Lago\_Ys-Transform](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lago_Ys-Transform)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/44 "2011-09-20T02:02:25Z")
I am pretty much a flaming progressive (with some exceptions, like being pro-nuclear power / pro-firearm ownership / pro-military intervention, but whatever) and I cannot tell you how continually distressed I am at my side’s lack of Machiavellianism. Hell, not even that far, I just mean the common sense test of ‘will this help me out in the long run?’ I mean, seriously, how many people here are talking about bullcrap like primarying Obama? I can name at least 10 people to this day who do not regret voting for Nader, my parents and ex among them. Every time I think about the New Left and how they never stopped to ask themselves ‘hey, it feels good to raise a ruckus, but is this indulgence in idealism worth the cost’ I feel like killing all humans. Or all of the times they DID think about it and then actually said _yes_ to that. Oh well, at least the gays and feminists split away from them just in the nick of time but that’s another story. But anyway, one of my hopes was that Generation Y would be done with that nonsense because they had a much more effective tool at their disposal for organizing and protesting, but apparently not. Hopefully getting a good sneer and a couple of middle fingers will cure them of that really fast and they go back to, you know, actually productive endeavors making ACORN 2.0 and actually **voting**. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/45 "2011-09-20T02:12:03Z")
> [@Lago\_Ys-Transform](#): > > Hell, not even that far, I just mean the common sense test of ‘will this help me out in the long run?’ I mean, seriously, how many people here are talking about bullcrap like primarying Obama? I can name at least 10 people to this day who do not regret voting for Nader, my parents and ex among them. On the other hand, many people can answer the question, “Did voting for Nader hurt me in the long run?” in the negative. Namely, people in states where the outcome was foreordained, due to the stupid electoral college. If you knew beyond a doubt that Bush was going to win (or Gore for that matter) in your state, voting for Nader was nothing more than an official lodgement of complaint against the two parties. That still strikes me as a reasonable long-term strategy. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/46 "2011-09-20T02:17:46Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That still strikes me as a reasonable long-term strategy. The result in my (former) state in 2000 was fore-ordained, and by voting for Nader I intended to lodge a vote of protest. It does not appear to have worked. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/47 "2011-09-20T02:20:02Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > …except it clearly is for the weakminded, as the objects of the OP, and so so many others through my life, have amply demonstrated. If I harbor a special loathing for them, it’s because I’ve felt so betrayed by them. Well, sometimes one’s ideals are not a good fit with one’s personality. I worked for years at a food co-op. And there is much to be said for a collective management and ownership. But I cannot stand meetings, I am impatient with the pace with which people come round to the correct way of thinking. OK, they’re “weak minded” in comparison to you. I don’t doubt it, it is verifiable fact that excellent taste in science fiction is definitive proof of superior intellect. But at least they are pulling on the right end of the rope. And if that isn’t enough, well, too bad, its all you’re gonna get. They don’t speak for you, I don’t speak for you, you don’t speak for me or them. Their foolishness is not yours, nor mine. And keep in mind that oftimes the weak-minded can explain things to each other better than you or I can explain it to them. And besides, the salient fact is that there’s so damn many of them! Better they should be dippy tree-huggers than war-mongering fascists. Oh, and the other guys? Are really, really good at talking to the weak-minded. Anecdote Warning: Re: collectives. So anyway, we had another meeting, and they passed around a poster for an event that we were, once again, expected to provide cheese and stuff for. Sure. Part of the deal. A touring lesbian band called “The Dyketones”. (Well, Twisted Sister was taken, I guess…). Whatever. What’s this? “Boys under twelve and all females welcome!” Whoa. Hold up a second. They want me to contribute, but I’m not welcome? I don’t think so. No, that doesn’t quite say it. No. Still not quite. Hell, no! Ah! Seperatists? Groovy, I’ll help them pack, they can borrow my truck. Outside of that… It was a tough couple weeks. Worked extra hard on the canned goods, so it all worked out. But I would very reluctant to work in a collective again. Its right, I’m the one that’s wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/48 "2011-09-20T02:29:16Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > OK, they’re “weak minded” in comparison to you. Naw–weak-minded in comparison to what they should be. I’m really not sure they’re better than nothing. Many of them (Critical Mass, I’m looking at you) are actually counterproductive, inasmuch as they alienate people from the cause they purport to support, because it’s just so much fun to be a self-righteous prick (and yes, I’m aware of some irony in this post). If they’d stop, for example, causing traffic jams, and instead would go straight to the doobie-smoking, I think society would have a better perception of cyclists. Same thing here: our Adbuster friends are going to promote the view that opposition to corporate personhood is a totally stupid belief held only by flakes and grungepunks. They’re going to strengthen that perception in the public mind. I’d love to see corporate personhood face limits so severe that a corporation could no more donate to a political campaign than could a dustpan or a ficus, but they’re going to make such a goal that much harder. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/49 "2011-09-20T02:37:17Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Same thing here: our Adbuster friends are going to promote the view that opposition to corporate personhood is a totally stupid belief held only by flakes and grungepunks. They’re going to strengthen that perception in the public mind. I’d love to see corporate personhood face limits so severe that a corporation could no more donate to a political campaign than could a dustpan or a ficus, but they’re going to make such a goal that much harder. What do you propose they do, instead of demonstrating, to register their opposition to Wall Street in a way you would consider mature, reasonable, and effective? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/50 "2011-09-20T02:40:06Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > What do you propose they do, instead of demonstrating, to register their opposition to Wall Street in a way you would consider mature, reasonable, and effective? 1. Vote. 2. Instead of protesting, spend that time at a minimum wage job and donate the money raised to an organization that actually works against corporate corruption. 3. Nonprofit! ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/51 "2011-09-20T02:46:25Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > 1. Vote. > 2. Instead of protesting, spend that time at a minimum wage job and donate the money raised to an organization that actually works against corporate corruption. > 3. Nonprofit! This is such glib and generic advice, I don’t even know where to begin dismantling it. You’re not **xtisme’s** sock, are you? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/52 "2011-09-20T02:51:09Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > This is such glib and generic advice, I don’t even know where to begin dismantling it. > > You’re not **xtisme’s** sock, are you? Uh, guess this is the first time you’ve met LHOD? Moidalize, LHOD, LHOD, Moidalize. ---
**Author:** ![Lago\_Ys-Transform](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a587f6/32.png) [@Lago\_Ys-Transform](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lago_Ys-Transform)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/53 "2011-09-20T03:13:25Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > This is such glib and generic advice, I don’t even know where to begin dismantling it. Crazy as it seems, sometimes you **can’t** do anything at that point you just have to grin and bear it. Even if you really really want to do something and just can’t bear the injustice of it all, sometimes doing nothing is the best thing all along. I know, it fucking sucks but that’s just luck of the draw. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/54 "2011-09-20T05:27:43Z")
Just looked at the pictures, damn but they’re young! Well, that’s what it is, they’re kids! Hell, cut 'em some slack, plenty of time for defeat, apathy and hopelessness! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/55 "2011-09-20T10:50:36Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > This is such glib and generic advice, I don’t even know where to begin dismantling it. “Vote” is generic? Donate to people who actually have the skills to do the work is generic? How about this, then: 1. If you’re really serious, then put in the time to learn some skills that will help you do something about the problem. 2. If you’re not really serious, then go straight to the doobie-smoking stage, play some Xbox, and stay out of the way of the people who are serious. My contention is that this kind of foolish activism does more harm than it does good, that it’s nothing more than a party under the guise of making a better world, but it’s a harmful sort of party. Do you disagree? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/56 "2011-09-20T13:01:15Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > My contention is that this kind of foolish activism does more harm than it does good, that it’s nothing more than a party under the guise of making a better world, but it’s a harmful sort of party. Do you disagree? Exhibit 1: > [@Kobal2](#): > > You completely miss the point, and in so doing demonstrate just how out of touch a rightard curmudgeon you are. > Do girls at Wall Street protests put out ? Yes, yes they do. Do they think you’re more interesting the more nonsensical shit you spout ? Yes, yes they fucking do. Do they have daddy and trust issues that lead them to “test” prospective boyfriends through a trial of sex (and faithfulness… I _think_, I never stuck around for part 2) ? You better fucking believe it. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/57 "2011-09-20T13:14:29Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > 1. Vote. > 2. Instead of protesting, spend that time at a minimum wage job and donate the money raised to an organization that actually works against corporate corruption. > 3. Nonprofit! 1. I vote, and I have given thousands of dollars to progressive candidates over the past four election cycles. 2. If I had any idea of what organization was working against corporate domination of American politics, and had a clue how to do so, I’d be delighted to give them money. Markos Moulitsas’ strategy of electing “more, better Democrats” crashed in the 2010 cycle. Nobody in a position to influence even a decent-sized sliver of the left seems to have any better ideas AFAICT. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/58 "2011-09-20T13:56:04Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > No, this doesn’t have the left’s official approval, but it’s the sort of nonsense that happens all too often amongst lefties But it just doesn’t happen that often among lefties. This is happening among a fringe of a fringe, and hardly anyone notices it, let alone participates. No Congresscritters or influential public figures on the left are more than briefly aware of them, let alone think they have anything important to say. As I said earlier, it’s easier to find crazies funny when they really can’t make any sort of difference. Meanwhile, on the right, the “get the government’s hands off my Medicare” crowd would be funny, except that they’re pretty much giving the GOP its marching orders these days. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/59 "2011-09-20T14:59:57Z")
Far be if from me to defend colorful, crazy people…well, not that far. But they have a point, do they not? What has been done, given the massive clusterfuck we all witnesssed. If greedfreaks see that they can loot the whole damned country, and get away with it, I suspect they very well might do it again. I cite History of Humankind, 30,000 b.c.e. to the Present. TL:DR? If you let them get away with it, they will do it again. So far, we’ve let them get away with it. So where does Uncle Joe put whats left of his pension fund? Ireland? The kids are all right. They apparently can see the nose on their own face, which appears to have eluded us who are so much wiser and mature. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/60 "2011-09-20T17:11:21Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > If you let them get away with it, they will do it again. Absolutely– **and these protestors are letting them get away with it.** Wanting corrupt plutocrats to stop being corrupt plutocrats is ineffective. Throwing a big self-involved pity party that inexpertly makes fun of the plutocrats is counterproductive. Being colorful is fine. Be as colorful as you want. But being colorful doesn’t stop corrupt plutocrats from being corrupt plutocrats. All it does is release a little energy, energy that could be better spent elsewhere. **RT** , you’re right that it’s not a super-common thing. I spent my high school and college years among the far left, where it DOES happen a lot. That’s what I was talking about. Thanks for the clarification. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851.md?page=4)