# \#OccupyWallStreet **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 19, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851 "2011-09-19T18:27:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/681 "2011-10-11T01:35:41Z")
History suggests we should be very leery of leaders with lots of charisma who exploit the discontent of the electorate. Very. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/682 "2011-10-11T01:57:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Left-wingers always seem to have trouble because they bog down in discussions about ideological purity. So just so I have this clear: in your opinion, which is more concerned with ideological purity, Conservatives, or Liberals? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/683 "2011-10-11T02:38:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I doubt it started as what you might call “generally mature”, and no doubt there is an immature element within it to this day. Probably always will be one - that’s the nature of political movements, especially populist ones. > > The Tea Party had the advantage of a relatively clear agenda right from the start - government is too big, spends too much, and the deficit is too high. The Wall Street Occupiers don’t have that - they still aren’t sure exactly what they want to achieve. I was using “maturity” to encompass the idea of having a coherent agenda. > [@](#): > > I wonder if there might be the seeds of another populist movement afoot - one that would try for whatever the occupiers want (maybe ban political contributions from corporations) as well as fiscal conservatism and social liberalism (gay marriage or what have you). Band together with the Tea Partiers, pull in some libertarians, and maybe get some traction. That’d be about where I would like to be. > [@](#): > > Left-wingers always seem to have trouble because they bog down in discussions about ideological purity. I’ve noticed this as a feature of some (but not all) Tea Party organizations as well, though. I think it’s a generic feature of populist movements until they get co-opted by establishment politicians who know what the fuck they’re doing. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/684 "2011-10-11T03:08:53Z")
What Tea Party? Where? What are they up to? Conspiring in sullen silence? Sarah Palin puts out her movie. You wouldn’t believe how that cratered, if I told you the flat truth, you would swear I’m making shit up. But I don’t have to. Which is good, since I’m not very good at it. Her books are available at 99% discount, or buy one get ten free, whichever. Tea Party conventions? Tea Party demonstrations for this that and the other? Used to be pretty common? Where’d they go, if the Tea Party is just busting out all over? Here’s a perfect opportunity, how come they’re not down there showing their muscle at the Occupado? What, all out of stupid hats and tea bags? ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/685 "2011-10-11T03:23:01Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It what way were the early Tea Partiers _silly_? Tricorn hats? Signs ranging from moronic to [offensive](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/16/10-most-offensive-tea-par_n_187554.html)? People going on about Obama’s birth certificate? Lots of talk about “teabagging” before they realized what it meant? If you’re going to judge the OWS protestors by the worst of them, you have to judge the Tea Partiers the same way. > [@](#): > > The dems and the mainstream media tried to portray them that way, but they were a serious bunch making a serious point. The fact that they were able to make such a big impact in a very short time is testament to that. They made such an impact in such a short time because they had Fox News essentially advertising for them in the early days and a shit-ton of big money behind it once it got going. That’s not to say that there wasn’t a real grassroots movement underneath it, but it was amplified big time by the establishment. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/686 "2011-10-11T03:43:19Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The Tea Party had the advantage of a relatively clear agenda right from the start - government is too big, spends too much, and the deficit is too high. The Wall Street Occupiers don’t have that - they still aren’t sure exactly what they want to achieve. > > “I don’t know what I want, but this isn’t it” is fine if you want to get together with your pals and kvetch, but you can’t use it as the basis for political action. That’s not a clear agenda. Those are very general ideas. What is it about government that needs to be smaller? What should be cut from the deficit? What should the government spend less on? How much less? Who do the taxes go back to? Until you answer those questions, you’re basically saying “I don’t know what I want, but this isn’t it.” The OWS protests are also built around general ideas–corporate greed and malfeasance are destroying the country, the government protects the interests of the wealthy and powerful over the poor and powerless, etc. Yes, the signs suggest a far broader agenda, but there were plenty of signs at Tea Party rallies about gay marriage, abortion, birth certificates, and every other right-wing cause you can imagine. Most of the ones I remember seeing were general statements against Obama. The Tea Party was/is pissed off conservatives. The OWS protesters are pissed-off liberals. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/687 "2011-10-11T04:44:31Z")
In post 632 ,Grayson explained it well. There is no vague agenda. There is no spokesman however. There is not even a group that speaks for all. There is no Dylan or any singer singing the songs to fire up the people. But there are supposed to be demonstrations in 900 cities. That indicates a lot of people understand there are problems and know who profited . They feel cheated and want changes. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/688 "2011-10-11T12:10:06Z")
> [@DoctorJ](#): > > That’s not a clear agenda. Those are very general ideas. What is it about government that needs to be smaller? What should be cut from the deficit? What should the government spend less on? How much less? Who do the taxes go back to? Until you answer those questions, you’re basically saying “I don’t know what I want, but this isn’t it.” It’s a hell of a lot clearer than whatever the OWS is in favor of/against. Mostly because it can be translated into the specific policy questions you mention. The OWS can’t even do that. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/689 "2011-10-11T12:12:31Z")
[Relevant Tom Tomorrow comic](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/10/1024469/-But-what-do-they-want?detail=hide&via=blog_1) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/690 "2011-10-11T14:46:35Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > [Relevant Tom Tomorrow comic](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/10/1024469/-But-what-do-they-want?detail=hide&via=blog_1) Once again, Tom Tomorrow nails it! ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Trom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Trom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trom)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/691 "2011-10-11T15:13:20Z")
At the start the Tea Party was 100% on the side of the OWS protesters. In the beginning the Tea Party was all about financial fraud, the bank bailouts, dubious Fed actions, etc. See this blog post of one of the Tea Party “founders.” [To the Tea Party: Go Screw Yourself](http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?singlepost=2222649) 3:50 is a decent place to start in the video. Of course that lasted about 6 hours before it became about Guns, God, and Gays. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/692 "2011-10-11T15:47:58Z")
Foreign banks got extremely low rate money from our government. Our banks got money for almost free. Small businesses have great difficulty getting loans. The government should bypass the banks and supply those. The engine of demand and employment has been stagnating while the rich and gathering enormous wealth. Credit card rates of 25 to 30 percent, while jacking up fees, has made the pain greater on the masses while pouring more money into the pockets of the bankers. The banks are foreclosing on millions of homes after promising to redo mortgages. They are robo signing and acting dishonestly. There is plenty to bitch about when it comes to Wall Street. The banks are speculating in oil . They are one of the causes of the high price of gas. It is not difficult to see the impact of banks on peoples lives and the economic inequities in America. The people are in the streets ,hoping to send a message to the politicians that their jobs are in jeopardy. We are fed up and not taking it anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/693 "2011-10-11T17:50:49Z")
**gonzo** , you are pretty much the last person on the planet who should be discussing what banks are doing. Given that the concept of charging interest on a loan seems to be beyond you, perhaps we could be spared your deathless insights into high finance. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/694 "2011-10-11T21:33:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > **gonzo** , you are pretty much the last person on the planet who should be discussing what banks are doing. > > Given that the concept of charging interest on a loan seems to be beyond you, perhaps we could be spared your deathless insights into high finance. > > Regards, > Shodan Actually since your livelihood depends on how well you can fleece people, I believe you should not discuss them. You are in the belly of the beast trying to justify the pillaging of millions of Americans. Look up Usury. That is what the banks have been allowed to do. They bought off regulators and politicians and caused a meltdown. Somewhere I am supposed to understand that is just business. i do not. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/695 "2011-10-11T21:50:50Z")
[http://www.lectlaw.com/files/ban02.htm](http://www.lectlaw.com/files/ban02.htm) here are Usury limits by state. All the banks had to do was convince one state to eliminate Usury laws. Then that state magically became their headquarters and they could charge the same rates across the country. Bankers are nasty thieves. Their asses should be regulated . they have proven that they have no trouble bankrupting the whole country and they are at it again. After the S & L debacle a few years ago ,over 1500 bankers were prosecuted. This last one was much worse. Who went to jail? [http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl/1992\_1090622/no-letup-in-s-amp-l-prosecutions-after-a-decade-ho.html](http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl/1992_1090622/no-letup-in-s-amp-l-prosecutions-after-a-decade-ho.html) This is what should have happened. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/696 "2011-10-11T21:59:53Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Somewhere I am supposed to understand that is just business. i do not. You’re supposed to understand _anything_, **gonzo**. But unfortunately… Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/697 "2011-10-11T22:32:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You’re supposed to understand _anything_, **gonzo**. But unfortunately… > > Regards, > Shodan That is all you ever have. Insults like a child. What a joke. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/698 "2011-10-11T22:44:36Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [http://www.lectlaw.com/files/ban02.htm](http://www.lectlaw.com/files/ban02.htm) > here are Usury limits by state. All the banks had to do was convince one state to eliminate Usury laws. Then that state magically became their headquarters and they could charge the same rates across the country. Can you please point out which state has no usury laws, that contains all the bank headquarters? Can you point out an example of a bank offering a loan product at usurious rates (As defined by a state in which that bank operates)? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/699 "2011-10-11T22:59:39Z")
May be thinking of South Dakota. [http://resources.lawinfo.com/en/Articles/Credit-Card-Gift-Card-and-E-payments/Federal/south-dakota-a-favorite-state-for-credit-card.html](http://resources.lawinfo.com/en/Articles/Credit-Card-Gift-Card-and-E-payments/Federal/south-dakota-a-favorite-state-for-credit-card.html) ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/700 "2011-10-12T00:24:40Z")
The OWS heroes have no shortage of cogent policy ideas. Heck, open up an introductory or intermediate text in macroeconomics, find the heading under liquidity trap, and you will find your answer. To wit: [Expansionary fiscal policy](http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/10/sign-of-the-times/) and [expansionary monetary policy](http://modeledbehavior.com/2011/10/06/in-which-i-am-won-over-by-occupy-wall-street/). and of course crisis prevention, something that the Republicans have consistently blocked by refusing to appoint or even suggest anyone for a consumer financial product safety commission. Now, it’s true that lefties have let right wing _agent provocateurs_ into their midst, which explains some of the occasionally illegal activities. [Washington protest: American Spectator condemned over article | Protest | The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/10/washington-protest-american-spectator-patrick-howley?newsfeed=true) Typical loony winger stuff. But with few exceptions that the nutcases will be sure to bring out, the operation has been tightly organized and so far effective. Of course the 99%ers have an advantage: [the facts are overwhelmingly on their side](http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2011/10/live-reporting-occupy-wall-street). Aided by compliant boards and gullible conservative butt-kissers, our country’s CEOs, banksters and HF managers have finagled heads-they-win-tails-we-lose compensation packages as they’ve pursued loopholes that place them in the 15% marginal tax bracket, including payroll taxes. What’s funny is that they can still rope in a segment of the professional class who really should know better. Yet point out the obvious as Elizabeth Warren did, and conservatives go ape-shit. > **[Elizabeth Warren Blasts Republicans Over 'Class Warfare' Charge, Tax Cuts For...](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/elizabeth-warren-class-warfare-gop-taxes_n_975561)** > > Elizabeth Warren Blasts Republicans Over 'Class Warfare' Charge, Tax Cuts For The Rich [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851.md?page=36)