# \#OccupyWallStreet **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 19, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851 "2011-09-19T18:27:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 53
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1041 "2011-10-24T12:43:46Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Spelling corrected. The poll is old but I suspect the wording mattered more. Yours measured “Support” which is a higher bar than “View somewhat favorably”. “View very favorably” was at 25%. I’m not surprised that “Support” was pegged in between. Of course a time series with similar wording would reveal trends, but I haven’t seen anything like that. I think “support” is the proper term to use since the poster I was responding to said the Occupiers had the “support” of the American people. Anyway, things are fluid and polls might change weekly on this new movement. I would not say it’s accurate to say that it has the “support” of the American people. It has some support, but not a majority support. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1042 "2011-10-24T12:45:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It has the support of 37% of Americans in the most recent poll, and the support of the guy who fights against the use of condoms to prevent AIDs, thinks women who are raped shouldn’t be allowed to have an abortion, and thinks homosexual acts are a sin. That’s the moral high ground and popular support? I have a bit of a problem with [the wording of the poll question](http://surveys.ap.org/data%5CGfK%5CAP-GfK%20Poll%20October%202011%20Topline%20FINAL_BUD2-CAMX-OWS.pdf). It reads: [QUOTE=AP poll] Do you consider yourself a supporter of the Wall Street protests, or are you not a supporter of the Wall Street protests? [/QUOTE] Wording can make a huge difference in poll results, and the question “do you consider yourself a supporter of X?” suggests a bit more loyalty and backing than “are you in favor of X?” Also, the poll’s alternative to ‘supporter’ isn’t ‘opponent’ or ‘neither’ but ‘not a supporter.’ Contrast this AP poll, taken October 13-17, with the [Gallup poll taken October 15-16](http://www.pollingreport.com/politics.htm) (link is to [pollingreport.com](http://pollingreport.com), sorry, no direct link), with a similar question: [QUOTE=Gallup poll] “Do you consider yourself to be a supporter of the Occupy Wall Street movement, an opponent of the Occupy Wall Street movement, or neither?” [/QUOTE] which shows 26% support, 19% oppose, and the rest neither/unsure. Sure, the ‘support’ numbers are lower than the AP poll, but it makes clear that there are more supporters than opponents. Or for a question that asks about agreeing/disagreeing rather than supporting/opposing, take the poll (same link) conducted by Princeton Survey Research Associates, from October 13-16. The question: [QUOTE=Princeton Survey Research Associates poll] Among those who have heard a lot, some, or not too much about the demonstrations [83% of poll respondents, fwiw]: “From what you know about these demonstrations against Wall Street, would you say you completely agree with the goals of the protestors, mostly agree, mostly DISagree, or completely disagree with their goals?” [/QUOTE] 59% completely or mostly agreed; 31% completely or mostly disagreed. Three polls, all taken at basically the same time, asking three related but different questions, getting very different numbers. Wording matters. Which wording is ‘correct’ is sometimes obvious, sometimes less clear, sometimes it depends on what meaning you’re trying to draw from the poll results. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1043 "2011-10-24T13:41:48Z")
Again, the poster I was responding to used the term “support”, so I think polls which ask that question are the proper ones to use when determining “support”. As for polls which ask if you agree with “the goals” of the protesters, do I really have to point out the problem with that question? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1044 "2011-10-24T14:03:50Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Again, the poster I was responding to used the term “support”, so I think polls which ask that question are the proper ones to use when determining “support”. I think it’s pretty obvious that ‘support’ meant two different things in the two different contexts. > [@](#): > > As for polls which ask if you agree with “the goals” of the protesters, do I really have to point out the problem with that question? Yes, you do. At the broad-strokes level that most people understand politics, it’s pretty clear who’s on which side here, and why. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1045 "2011-10-24T15:00:18Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I think it’s pretty obvious that ‘support’ meant two different things in the two different contexts. I don’t think it’s clear at all that they mean different things. > [@](#): > > Yes, you do. At the broad-strokes level that most people understand politics, it’s pretty clear who’s on which side here, and why. Without explicitly stating what the goals are, having someone say they agree with them is not very meaningful. Especially when we have people who really do support these guys telling us that it’s not important to have specific goals. If I were asked that question in a poll, I would be lying if I said I supported or didn’t support their goals. I’ve been reading the news stories and know a thing or two about the demonstrations, but I couldn’t tell you what their goals are, or if they even have an agreed upon set of goals. I’ve seen several individuals mention goals, but I don’t know if they speak for the group or not. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1046 "2011-10-24T15:31:10Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Hold still so I can give you a good pat in the back. > > BTW, the pictures I’ve seen of the “Occupy Detroit” have shown Lilly-white crowds from a city that’s overwhelmingly black. > > Perhaps you can tell me why the blacks haven’t Bern listening to smart white liberals like yourself. Bad pictures. The occupation is about half black. I have been there several times and there is a strong black presence. [FOX 2 Detroit | Local News, Weather, and Live Streams | WJBK](http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news/local/occupy-detroit-protesters-demonstrate-outside-bank-of-america-branch-20111021-ms) here is a TV picture. ---
**Author:** ![Cyclone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/db5fbb/32.png) [@Cyclone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyclone)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1047 "2011-10-25T00:25:24Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > … **Cyclone** : Really, read the wikipedia article on David Icke and get to us about how great his ideas are. Thank you I read the Wiki on Icke, and did not think much of it. However, I did summarize that basically Icke is your typical absent minded professor with his share of quirks. Many intellectuals experience this. Einstein, Socrates, and Linclon did. The point is what he says, and that his facts are correct. No news here. ---
**Author:** ![Cyclone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/db5fbb/32.png) [@Cyclone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyclone)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1048 "2011-10-25T00:27:28Z")
> [@Polycarp did you forget to take you pills?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/polycarp-did-you-forget-to-take-you-pills/216640/246): > > You might as well contact Obama since he is the leader of your movement. There is nothing Barry Obama would like more than to be the leader of the 99%. Unfortunately, Obama has pissed off his base big time, and this includes me. During the debt ceiling talks Obama sold out the New Deal, New Frontier, and the Great Society in one move. He indicated he was willing to play poker and consider cuts in Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. Democratic presidents **never** compromise the BIG 3. Last time the DNC sent me a fund raising letter, I wrote across it and sent back, “I do not donate to Republicans.” The night Obama sold out the Big 3, I removed the special 2012 Obama bumper sticker sent by the DNC for DNC members, and from my Jeep. We put Obama in office, and he is not following instructions. Watch Obama out their campaigning for his JOBS legislation, his popularity is down the toilet with almost everyone. There are members of the Democratic Party who would like to dump Obama in the primaries, and put Hillary Clinton up for 2012. I was Clinton before I was Obama. The 99% is against both political parties and Wall Street, (ie; all financial capitols around the planet. It is a political blood bath over at the DNC. Loyal lifetime union members are telling the Democratic Party to fuck off, and are going into the streets with OWS. OWS has allowed them in, **ONLY** if they are participants, and do not take leadership roles. Could their be a third party? I doubt it, this thing is already going international. OWS is way past the 2012 election the United States, the focus is on demonstrations in Greece and Rome. Europeans are dumping Euros and buying dollars. Americans are moving out of dollars into metals. I bought a little gold last week myself. \*\* TODAY THE VATICAN ENDORSED OCCUPY WALL STREET. [Occupy Wall Street: Vatican sides with anti-capitalist protesters in call for ‘global economic authority’ | Holy Post | National Post](http://life.nationalpost.com/2011/10/24/vatican-calles-for-global-economic-authority/) THE TRAIN IS LEAVING THE STATION.\*\* \*\*"VATICAN CITY — The Vatican called on Monday for the establishment of a “global public authority” and a “central world bank” to rule over financial institutions that have become outdated and often ineffective in dealing fairly with crises. The document from the Vatican’s Justice and Peace department should please the “Occupy Wall Street” demonstrators and similar movements around the world who have protested against the economic downturn."\*\* ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1049 "2011-10-25T00:57:10Z")
Great. You have the Lizard Man and the World’s Greatest Pedophile Protector on your side. Where do I sign up? Also, Hillary isn’t on the side with the Occupiers. She’s part of the 1-percent. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1050 "2011-10-25T02:34:02Z")
[http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/10/24/professor-explains-how-economic-inequality-harms-societies/](http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/10/24/professor-explains-how-economic-inequality-harms-societies/) Smart rich people should learn something from this TED talk. The wage differential does not just harm the poor. It does not just harm the country. It harms the rich too. This study in the talk refers to mental illness, homicides, prison populations, social mobility , health effects and more. The whole society suffers from the greed of the top 1 percent. But the irony is they do too. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1051 "2011-10-25T03:17:19Z")
Let’s not forget that they have the fervent support of **gonzomax**. If that’s not the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval, I don’t know what is! ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1052 "2011-10-25T04:03:00Z")
What does that have to do with anything? I rarely mention your conservative leaning as coloring your views ,although they obviously do. This is TED data. I have nothing to do with that at all. Perhaps someone can teach you something. I was hoping TED could. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1053 "2011-10-25T04:30:22Z")
[Bank of America Deathwatch: Moves Risky Derivatives from Holding Company to Taxpayer-Backstopped Depository | naked capitalism](http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/10/bank-of-america-deathwatch-moves-risky-derivatives-from-holding-company-to-taxpayer-backstopped-depositors.html) Sometimes I think many of you are totally ignorant of what horrible, selfish people run banks. here bis B of A moving its derivatives to FDIC backed accounts. That would put the tax payers on hook again. My question is what the hell will it take too get some of you people out in occupation? These guys will rob us until you stop them. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1054 "2011-10-25T04:53:24Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > What does that have to do with anything? I’ll leave it up to your political allies to explain how much they value having you on their side. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1055 "2011-10-25T05:04:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Again, the poster I was responding to used the term “support”, so I think polls which ask that question are the proper ones to use when determining “support”. As for polls which ask if you agree with “the goals” of the protesters, do I really have to point out the problem with that question? I support the New York Yankees and the Mets: hey, it’s a living. I can’t say that I’m a supporter of either though. 26% is an astonishingly high percentage of supporters. To say that a majority of Americans support OWS wouldn’t be inaccurate though, to the extent that most view it favorably. Admittedly, I’d like to see a couple more polls to see whether my take is accurate. FWIW, today’s Pew poll well it seem to inconveniently back John Mace’s POV… [Public Divided Over Occupy Wall Street Movement | Pew Research Center](http://www.people-press.org/2011/10/24/public-divided-over-occupy-wall-street-movement/) Support: 39%, Oppose: 35%. Lots of people in the middle. That said, independents register 43% support. And the Tea Party has less support and more opposition. ## Separately, I understand that the 99% movement polls a lot better. Occupy Wall Street moves from one success to another. For 8-9 months the Washington media had been focusing on everything but the problems facing the country. The deficit discussion was oblivious to textbook economics and professional opinion which said that our long term deficit problems were tied to health care and that over the immediate term the economy required fiscal stimulus. And yet in a few weeks the dysfunction was blunted: Republicans are in turmoil trying to figure out how they can paper over their pro-plutocratic pampering. Tough minded analysts like Bloomberg/Business Week are getting into the act: their newest blog is titled: [Occupy Wall Street: The Wealth Debate](http://www.businessweek.com/finance/occupy-wall-street/). No simpering conservatives at that outlet: they know exactly what the protest is about. A sampling: > [@The Newest Bloomberg Blog](#): > > “Why has this succeeded where other movements have failed?” is an acute question for the organizers of OWS, many veterans of other protests–anti-nuke, anti-capital punishment–that never gained similar traction … I think the range of the personal stories is a bigger factor than the organizational efforts on display at Zuccotti Square. > > Another factor is that the media was already primed for this story. Organizers ask why the press has paid attention to this when they’ve ignored so many other protests. The answer isn’t that the press was somehow forced to listen. It’s that the growing wealth gap is a story that has been getting attention from the media for a long while now (there are a ton of important stories the press has conspicuously failed on–this isn’t one of them). > > What’s the takeaway strategy from the OWS protest? Maybe this: Take on a really big subject that the press is already eager to cover. Then add visuals. Hey, I don’t necessary agree with them. I’m just saying their stance lacks the typically inane modern conservative obtuseness. > [@Cyclone](#): > > I did summarize that basically Icke is your typical absent minded professor with his share of quirks. No, Icke is not a professor. He’s your typical crank who gloms on to any opportunity to give him leverage with the rubes. Thinking that the queen of England is a lizard is not a quirk, it’s a pathology. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1056 "2011-10-25T05:36:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’ll leave it up to your political allies to explain how much they value having you on their side. Why does that matter? You obviously need educating. i provided a TED talk for you and you figured a personal attack to me was a reasonable response. I gave a post where B of America is trying to make tax payers, through the FDIC ,responsible for their gambling losses. You gave a Rush type response. No surprise there. Fine posting and very mature MACE. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1057 "2011-10-25T12:49:02Z")
In other news, a 1%-er (or, uh, 53%-er, maybe) has taken it upon themselves to express their disagreement with Occupy by tossing what appears to be a [Drano bomb](http://www.pressherald.com/news/Chemical-bomb-tossed-into-Occupy-Maine-encampment.html) into the middle of the Occupy Maine encampment: > [@](#): > > Witnesses said a silver car had been circling before the attack, its occupants shouting things like “Get a job” and “You communist.” They believe someone from that car threw the device, according to a statement from Occupy Maine. Way to support domestic terrorism, **John**! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1058 "2011-10-25T13:26:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’ll leave it up to your political allies to explain how much they value having you on their side. Gonzo argues consistently and hard for generally good ideas. He is a valuable ally. There, happy? ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1059 "2011-10-25T13:59:02Z")
At Occupy Oakland this morning hundreds of officers from at least 10 law-enforcement agencies used tear gas and batons to wreck Occupy Oakland’s encampment. Arrests were made. “According to the Oakland Tribune, a spokeswoman for the mayor, Karen Boyd, said Friday that the protesters had shown themselves incapable of self-governance. “As a collective, they cannot maintain the plaza in a safe condition,” she said.” So, which is safer- sleeping in a tent at a peaceful protest or lobbing “flash-bangs”, batons and teargas at 4 am? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1060 "2011-10-25T13:59:09Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Bad pictures. The occupation is about half black. I have been there several times and there is a strong black presence. > [FOX 2 Detroit | Local News, Weather, and Live Streams | WJBK](http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news/local/occupy-detroit-protesters-demonstrate-outside-bank-of-america-branch-20111021-ms) here is a TV picture. You’re in Detroit, Detroit is about 80% Black. Blacks are still underparticipating in the movement. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851.md?page=52) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851.md?page=54)