# \#OccupyWallStreet **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 19, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851 "2011-09-19T18:27:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 76
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1501 "2011-10-30T21:41:02Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > What is your thesis ? Whoops meant to add that after the cutting and pasting. You’d think passing a law preventing banks from taking the kind of risks that trashed the economy and put a lot of Americans on the street would be an obvious thing. Those cites document the Volcker Rule which your employers fought it tooth and nail. Apparently they like putting Americans out of work and on to the street. They bribed Congress, as documented. Now Congress deserves a special kind of scorn for responding to it, but clearly your bosses are selfish and greedy, and care not for the misery they caused. The Occupiers have a point. Bankers have more toadies in Congress than the people have representatives. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1502 "2011-10-30T21:51:21Z")
> **[Dick Durbin: Banks "Frankly Own The Place"](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/dick-durbin-banks-frankly_n_193010)** > > Dick Durbin: Banks "Frankly Own The Place" Durbin agrees. The banks are the most powerful lobby in politics and they have bought the senators and congressmen. No matter how much you think things are broken, you can not fix them. That is part of what the occupations are signalling. It might be politically wise to go against the bankers . If the people refuse to accept the status quo and demand change, the pols may have to adapt to keep their seats. ---
**Author:** ![Cyclone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/db5fbb/32.png) [@Cyclone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyclone)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1503 "2011-11-01T02:02:36Z")
> [@Joy](#): > > [http://imgupld.lunaticoutpost.com/graphic/images/2011/October/19/A621\_4E9F6A73.jpg](http://imgupld.lunaticoutpost.com/graphic/images/2011/October/19/A621_4E9F6A73.jpg) Nice post, love your graphic! ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1504 "2011-11-01T15:52:47Z")
I highly recommend [this short piece by Brett Arends](http://www.marketwatch.com/Story/story/print?guid=7541917E-03E4-11E1-B7EF-002128040CF6) of MarketWatch, explaining how the collapse of MF Global illustrates in a nutshell what’s wrong with our economy. A few highlights: > [@](#): > > Up until a week ago, I’ll bet you hadn’t even heard of MF Global. And you probably still don’t understand what it is they did. But guess what? This just cost you money. The biggest investors included various Fidelity mutual funds, TIAA-CREF, and low-cost index fund manager Dimensional Fund Advisors. But pretty much any mutual fund that invests in the U.S. stock market has money in this stock. IOW, there’s a good chance that some of your retirement money just disappeared. I know some of mine did. > [@](#): > > These days more and more power lies in the hands of a smaller and smaller elite. Many people react by taking refuge in conspiracy theories. They assume the elite knows what’s really going on. > > The more frightening view is the exact opposite: That the people steering the ship haven’t got a clue. > > Look at Jon Corzine, the chairman and CEO of MF Global. He has remarkable credentials. He’s the former head of Goldman Sachs, a former Senator, a former governor. And MF Global was his baby. He took over there last year, on a mission to build it into a global financial firm. > > Yet it turns out the company’s blow-up took him by completely surprise. How much? Consider this: Corzine actually bought about $450,000 worth of MF Global stock with his own money over the summer. Some of it as recently as August. > [@](#): > > MF Global says that it employs about 3,000 people. And these were good — meaning high-paying— jobs. According to the latest filings, the average MF Global employee earned about $46,000 last quarter — or $184,000 a year. > > That’s the average. Account for the support staff and so on, and the traders and risk-takers were pocketing serious coin. > > It’s pretty much the same across Wall Street. But what are they actually doing? They’re just playing poker against each other. They’re engaged in an “industry” that produces neither iPhones nor brain scans nor pizzas. There is no output. There is no wider social purpose. They just trade paper against one another. Like most of Wall Street, it’s just a zero sum game. > > Hard to believe, but there are actual people — lots of people — who think that what the U.S. economy needs is more MF Globals to trade against one another. Then our employment problem would be solved! > > Former Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan once told a crowd in Boston that America should pretty much leave manufacturing to China and concentrate on our “core competence” of running financial firms. Like MF Global, no doubt. Or Lehman Brothers. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1505 "2011-11-01T16:21:10Z")
Anybody see Colbert’s interview with the Occupy Wall Street duo? Hilarious. “What’s your name?” “Ketchup”. I want to start an “Occupy Space” movement. Who’s with me? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1506 "2011-11-01T16:29:46Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Anybody see Colbert’s interview with the Occupy Wall Street duo? Hilarious. “What’s your name?” “Ketchup”. That was a scream. That girl was a space cadet, totally in the tank. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1507 "2011-11-01T16:35:20Z")
Anyone catch Rick Perry [recounting a satirical quote from a nonexistent protester at an equally nonexistent “Occupy Toronto” protest](http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/11/oops-rick-perry-cites-fake-quote-from-viral-occupy-toronto-satire.php?ref=fpb), thinking it was the real thing? I want to start an “Occupy the Empty Space Inside of Republicans’ Brains” movement. (A mind IS a terrible thing to waste, after all!) Who’s with me? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1508 "2011-11-01T16:45:45Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I want to start an “Occupy the Empty Space Inside of Republicans’ Brains” movement. (A mind IS a terrible thing to waste, after all!) Who’s with me? 🙂 Are you sure you want to go in there? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1509 "2011-11-01T18:39:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Are you sure you want to go in there? :eek: It’s my new high-stakes adventure, “Freedonia Rufus and the Brains of Doom”! ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1510 "2011-11-01T18:42:50Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > It’s my new high-stakes adventure, “Freedonia Rufus and the Brains of Doom”! In the fine tradition of Roland Hedley’s two perilous expeditions into Reagan’s brain… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1511 "2011-11-01T19:09:03Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I highly recommend [this short piece by Brett Arends](http://www.marketwatch.com/Story/story/print?guid=7541917E-03E4-11E1-B7EF-002128040CF6) of MarketWatch, explaining how the collapse of MF Global illustrates in a nutshell what’s wrong with our economy. > > A few highlights: Excerpting from your quote of the piece: > [@](#): > > But what are they actually doing? They’re just playing poker against each other. They’re engaged in an “industry” that produces neither iPhones nor brain scans nor pizzas. There is no output. There is no wider social purpose. They just trade paper against one another. Like most of Wall Street, it’s just a zero sum game. Given your “highly recommend” do I understand that you endorse the truth of this claim? iIn your view, most of Wall Street is a “zero sum” game; they just trade paper against one another? That statement accurately captures your understanding? ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1512 "2011-11-01T19:43:37Z")
Occupy is planning a “First in the Nation Caucus Occupation” to occupy the Iowa caucuses beginning about a week before that event. I like what they are doing. They have gotten Eric Cantor to talk about income inequality and probably played a role in Bank of America deciding to not charge that $5 fee for debit cards. So far, there have been about 3000 arrests. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1513 "2011-11-01T19:50:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Excerpting from your quote of the piece: > > Given your “highly recommend” do I understand that you endorse the truth of this claim? iIn your view, most of Wall Street is a “zero sum” game; they just trade paper against one another? > > That statement accurately captures your understanding? Dont’ answer **RT**! It’s a trick question. A cleverly laid trap waiting for the innocent to set foot in it. Than, SNAP!!! Caught in a rhetorical noose, and the harder you struggle, the tighter it becomes as you scream in agony. Oh, the humanity!! ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1514 "2011-11-01T20:24:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Given your “highly recommend” do I understand that you endorse the truth of this claim? iIn your view, most of Wall Street is a “zero sum” game; they just trade paper against one another? > > That statement accurately captures your understanding? No, much of it involves the fleecing of the portion of the general public that invests in something other than index funds, but doesn’t do it as their day job. As a former deputy assistant Treasury secretary [recently put it](http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2011/10/a-note-prolegomenon-to-any-useful-discussion-of-modern-american-finance.html): > [@](#): > > Overwhelmingly, this last factor is necessary to drive the vast majority of trades we see in modern financial markets. Look at any trade, and the odds are that on one side you will find people who know less than their counterparty and yet have not asked themselves the obvious question: “if this is a good price at which to buy, why are these people who know more than I do about the situation selling?” He continues: > [@](#): > > There are three ways in which a financial transaction can be a good deal for both sides. > > First, people have different time preferences: I have money now that I do not want to spend on some useful commodity until sometime in the future, while you may have no money now and need some but anticipate being flush in the future; then we both benefit if I lend you the money–at interest. Second, risks distributed and diversified are risks dissipated, and so even though the average customer pays money into the insurance system insurance is still a valuable thing to buy because the insurance company pays you when you really need the cash. Third, economies work best when benefits and losses run with decsion-making: those whose actions create or destroy value pay attention when they have “skin in the game”, and financial transactions are a good way to make sure they have that “skin in the game”. > > Those three sources of value for both sides in financial transactions are powerful. > > They motivate net investments and drawdowns, insurance and diversification, and the creation of equity interests for managers, partners, homeowners, and others. > > They drive perhaps 1/1000 of the transactions we see on financial markets each day. I won’t defend that ratio, but it seems pretty clear that the poker-game aspects of the financial markets have overwhelmed the parts that add value. Now, we’ll see if this is a trap, or a TARP, or what. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1515 "2011-11-02T01:45:11Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > …Now, we’ll see if this is a trap, or a TARP, or what. 😉 The Devil called, confirming your reservation. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1516 "2011-11-02T01:46:30Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The Devil called, confirming your reservation. Smoking or non? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1517 "2011-11-02T01:56:13Z")
How would I know? I’m not a lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1518 "2011-11-02T02:01:35Z")
Bah hell wouldn’t be a cake walk like fire and brimestone. Hell is spending an eternity in elevator with someone who’s perfume is so thick it strips paint off the walls. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1519 "2011-11-02T14:51:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Excerpting from your quote of the piece: > > Given your “highly recommend” do I understand that you endorse the truth of this claim? iIn your view, most of Wall Street is a “zero sum” game; they just trade paper against one another? > > That statement accurately captures your understanding? Swaps, futures/forwards, shortsales, syntheitcs, options and other derivatives. I am pretty sure that the notional amount of these positions (and the gains and losses on these positions) dwarf that of the stock market or debt market. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1520 "2011-11-02T18:51:07Z")
One bank sold 74 trillion in SWAPs. how is that a zero sum game? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851.md?page=75) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851.md?page=77)