# \#OccupyWallStreet **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 19, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851 "2011-09-19T18:27:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 77
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1521 "2011-11-02T19:07:21Z")
[http://problembanklist.com/fdic-to-cover-losses-on-trillion-bank-of-america-derivative-bets-0419/](http://problembanklist.com/fdic-to-cover-losses-on-trillion-bank-of-america-derivative-bets-0419/) Make that 75 and they want to transfer the risk to the tax payers. That is the correct thing to do because they are special people with special educations. That means they are not crooks. We should give them all the money they want because we do not understand . ---
**Author:** ![Trom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Trom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trom)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1522 "2011-11-02T19:22:22Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > One bank sold 74 trillion in SWAPs. how is that a zero sum game? Because for every buyer of a swap, there is a seller. If one side makes $1 million, the other loses $1 million. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1523 "2011-11-02T20:15:22Z")
> [@Trom](#): > > Because for every buyer of a swap, there is a seller. If one side makes $1 million, the other loses $1 million. Except that they are functionally similar insurance–if the swap defaults, and the issuer has no actual ability to cover it, the money goes poof. ---
**Author:** ![Trom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Trom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trom)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1524 "2011-11-02T20:39:28Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Except that they are functionally similar insurance–if the swap defaults, and the issuer has no actual ability to cover it, the money goes poof. Yes, if something breaks, it is broken. 😕 The options market, interest rate futures market, oil futures market, frozen concentrated orange juice market, etc. are still zero-sum. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1525 "2011-11-02T21:23:58Z")
> [@Trom](#): > > Yes, if something breaks, it is broken. 😕 > > The options market, interest rate futures market, oil futures market, frozen concentrated orange juice market, etc. are still zero-sum. The market might be technically zero-sum, but when all the oranges in Florida die of the blight, that fact is cold consolation to the guy holding the “concentrated OJ futures” bag. How much the worse when the product being traded doesn’t have ANY meaningful existence. ---
**Author:** ![Trom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Trom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trom)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1526 "2011-11-02T22:01:27Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > The market might be technically zero-sum, but when all the oranges in Florida die of the blight, that fact is cold consolation to the guy holding the “concentrated OJ futures” bag. > > How much the worse when the product being traded doesn’t have ANY meaningful existence. The person long orange juice futures at contract expiration would be just fine. The short seller would be screwed. The short would have to liquidate his position at a huge loss or actually make delivery of the physical underlying. At contract expiration the only people still in the market are physical end users. There wouldn’t be any “papers only” speculators short on the last day. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1527 "2011-11-02T23:43:38Z")
> [@Trom](#): > > The person long orange juice futures at contract expiration would be just fine. The short seller would be screwed. The short would have to liquidate his position at a huge loss or actually make delivery of the physical underlying. At contract expiration the only people still in the market are physical end users. There wouldn’t be any “papers only” speculators short on the last day. EVERYONE in the CDS market was essentially a paper-only speculator, and no one knews when the last day was going to be. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1528 "2011-11-02T23:50:51Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > EVERYONE in the CDS market was essentially a paper-only speculator, and no one knews when the last day was going to be. Not me. I’m still in. When is the last day? I’m reading the last bunch of posts and the ignorance actually hurts. There is like this new breed of tell all article out there, the gist of which is how they are going to explain the real truth and how everything was a house of cards and how everybody knew better, and how greedy everybody was. I suppose that sells, but it’s not just true. RTFs article is collosally stupid. The ratio is the least of it. Trom: Actually those markets are negative sum because there is a spread. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1529 "2011-11-02T23:51:57Z")
I mean, basically, most Credit Default Swaps were naked swaps, meaning the parties to the swap were not related to the party whose debt it was. That’d be like me taking out a fire insurance policy on your house because I think it’s going to burn down. There was no requirement or regulation that obligated the guy selling me a CDS to have sufficient funds to cover the payout in the event your house DID burn down. And then I can sell to someone else who doesn’t even know you, and might be tempted to leave matches near your place just on the off chance. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1530 "2011-11-02T23:53:44Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Not me. I’m still in. When is the last day? I’m reading the last bunch of posts and the ignorance actually hurts. What hurts is all the money that vanished from my economy from uncovered CDS instruments. The last day SHOULD have been when you guys fucked us all over with these damn things in 2008. Go on and cry some more about the nobility of your profession. At least the big consumer banks are starting to realize that the customers are fucking right back, and backing away from their pansy-ass debit card fees. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2011, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1531 "2011-11-02T23:54:38Z")
Svin: My internets are back up. do you still want a response or have we moved on? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1532 "2011-11-03T00:00:12Z")
Hey, anyone want to buy some insurance on that guy’s house over there? If it burns down, I’ll totally pay you the value of it in these insurance policies I took out on that other guy’s house down the block. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1533 "2011-11-03T01:17:40Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > What hurts is all the money that vanished from my economy from uncovered CDS instruments. How much was that and how we’re you injured? > [@](#): > > Go on and cry some more about the nobility of your profession. To a willfully ignorant chicken farmer? Nyaah. I used to have a farm myself. I learned not to wrestle with a pig. You just get dirty and the pig likes it. Feel free to wallow in the mud hollow of your ignorance without the cleansing light of knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1534 "2011-11-03T01:18:59Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Hey, anyone want to buy some insurance on that guy’s house over there? If it burns down, I’ll totally pay you the value of it in these insurance policies I took out on that other guy’s house down the block. Sure. What rate are you offering, piggy? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1535 "2011-11-03T01:48:00Z")
> [@Trom](#): > > Because for every buyer of a swap, there is a seller. If one side makes $1 million, the other loses $1 million. The SWAPS are more than the amount of money on the planet. To make it simple for you, they sold SWAPS they could not pay back. They did not have the money to do so. It did not exist on the planet and they were only one bank. The word you must be searching for is fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1536 "2011-11-03T02:08:32Z")
High Financier Scylla proclaims from his pulpit! > [@Scylla](#): > > How much was that and how we’re you injured? Have you looked at unemployment rates, lately? I took a nice big hit on my retirement funds, too, thanks for asking–the blame for all of which can be laid at the feet, ultimately, of bankers and financiers. Oh wait, no, it’s all those other people. Totally the fault of everyone BUT the financiers. > [@](#): > > To a willfully ignorant chicken farmer? Nyaah. I used to have a farm myself. I learned not to wrestle with a pig. You just get dirty and the pig likes it. Feel free to wallow in the mud hollow of your ignorance without the cleansing light of knowledge. You’re so damn cute when you try to fling ad hominems. I could just eat you up. The difference is, when I go to work every day, I can do it with a clear conscience. Anyone who works for an investment bank that is in any way involved with CDS or subprime mortgages cannot. Wouldn’t you feel better retraining for a career where they let you keep your soul, and not lie with accounting tricks about how much money you totally have to cover your debts? Maybe you should shine that cleansing light on your entire sector of the economy instead of pontificating from your Shetland pony of a high horse. Tell me, O High Financier, what do you call it when I offer to sell you something that I don’t actually possess? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1537 "2011-11-03T02:09:46Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The SWAPS are more than the amount of money on the planet. To make it simple for you, they sold SWAPS they could not pay back. They did not have the money to do so. It did not exist on the planet and they were only one bank. The word you must be searching for is fraud. This has nothing to do with the point you were responding to. His points stands. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1538 "2011-11-03T02:40:34Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Have you looked at unemployment rates, lately? I took a nice big hit on my retirement funds, too, thanks for asking–the blame for all of which can be laid at the feet, ultimately, of bankers and financiers. But you said it was he CDS instruments that did it. I’m asking how. It’s a legitimate question. [quoteThe difference is, when I go to work every day, I can do it with a clear conscience. Anyone who works for an investment bank that is in any way involved with CDS or subprime mortgages cannot.[/quote] My conscience is clear. I don’t see how you can sleep at night seeing all the people you’ve killed with salmonella, not to mention the fact that you are responsible for the bird flu crisis and all the deths fom that. Murderer! > **[Global Poultry Industry is the Root of the Bird Flu Crisis - Global Research](https://www.globalresearch.ca/global-poultry-industry-is-the-root-of-the-bird-flu-crisis/2051)** > > A new and extremely important report has come out today from GRAIN, about the mistaken policy analysis and debate surrounding the current Bird Flu crisis. While panic in the media and at government levels is focused on the threat from migratory birds... > [@](#): > > Wouldn’t you feel better retraining for a career where they let you keep your soul, and not lie with accounting tricks about how much money you totally have to cover your debts? Maybe you should shine that cleansing light on your entire sector of the economy instead of pontificating from your Shetland pony of a high horse. It beats destroying the planet, poisoning thousands killing the elderly and wrecking the ecosystem. > [@](#): > > Tell me, O High Financier, what do you call it when I offer to sell you something that I don’t actually possess? It’s called a “short sale” in it’s simplest form. Are you seriously against the practice? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1539 "2011-11-03T02:41:38Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The SWAPS are more than the amount of money on the planet. To make it simple for you, they sold SWAPS they could not pay back. They did not have the money to do so. It did not exist on the planet and they were only one bank. The word you must be searching for is fraud. Do you have cite for this? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1540 "2011-11-03T03:03:16Z")
I hope the Occupiers movement spreads, they increase their numbers, and start becoming cohesive enough to float some candidates of their own, and get the current batch un-elected, fired, and charged with whatever corruption charges will stick, and then go after the greedy shits that were paying them off and giving the orders. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851.md?page=76) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851.md?page=78)