# \#OccupyWallStreet **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 19, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851 "2011-09-19T18:27:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 81
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1601 "2011-11-04T00:10:55Z")
Next, you pulled up some stories from the 53% people. I’m glad you agree that there is some pretty hard ass shit there. I think you miss the point, though. Those people don’t want help. They don’t want the government to take care of them. They are not whining. These occupiers bitch because they got what? A degree in art history, have a tough time finding a job, and don’t want to pay back the loan? They don’t want to pay for their house? They blame somebody else for what is largely their failure? Everybody has bad luck. Most of us go through tough times. Some of us deal with it without blaming somebody else, camping out in a park, and smoking dope while running from their responsibilities. > [@](#): > > This is utterly incoherent. Are you for real? Are you insane? I don’t even believe you swallow this bullshit yourself. > > You don’t have to be personally responsible for things that happen to you in order to feel empowered. In fact, some of the most profound feelings of empowerment derive from people working together in face of adversity that’s no one’s fault. If a tornado hits my community I don’t need to feel like it was my fault in order play an important role in rebuilding. Grrr. You miss my point again. I know that it is not true. I just pretend it is. I act like it is. I try to make myself believe it. I do this because I find it to be a personally useful viewpoint that prevents me from indulging in self pity or blame and keeps me focussed. You being a Swede, probably require no such artifice. I’m half Irish, half polack and do. > [@](#): > > What is interesting about this point is that if actually buy it, you’ll never have a reason to protest the government over anything, ever – since it’s always your own fault. Yes! > [@](#): > > But it’s good to know that if drink myself into a near stupor, hop into my car, and plow into yours at the next intersection, you’ll blame yourself instead of me, and act accordingly. I suppose that means you’ll pay my medical expenses and repair my car as well? After all, you have only yourself to blame for the accident. This is a really, really good example. I am glad you brought it up. No. I will not pay for your car, or pay your medical expenses, and, if possible I would sue for every last penny. Where my philosophy serves me is before and after the accident. Lots of times people get involved in accidents that are not their fault… but are preventable. My father taught me to drive and what he told me is that I should assume that everybody else on the road is either a maniac, in a drunken stupor, or psychotically hell bent on crashing into me, and, that it is my responsibility not to let it happen. To do this I need to develop a set of habits and situational awareness that at first seems pretty paranoid. For example, I always want to have at least two outs if somebody does something stupid and changes lanes into me or something. I keep distances that give me plenty of stopping power. I never indulge in road rage, and I always let those really annoying in when they come speeding up beside you and then cut in front when you are waiting to pass a truck. I am always scanning. I am doing all this under the belief that all accidents are preventable and will be my fault if I waver in my care and vigilance. The end result is that I have never had an accident in 30 years of driving (knock on wood.) Again, it’s not true, but acting like I can prevent all accidents **sets me up** to be prepared to prevent all I can. Finally, if I do end up hurt in an accident, this attitude helps me self-rescue and rehabilitate and give myself every chance I can. There’s a great book called “Deep Survival” which has studied many cases of survival situations, and, it turns out this sense of self-responsibility, the need to self-rescue is a pretty strong indicator for success. Finally, I just think, for me, that it’s a really good way to try to live. YMMV ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1602 "2011-11-04T00:27:02Z")
If I take a look at Obama (who I voted for BTW,) and think about his campaign, I recognize now that it seems to me his message was deliberately vague and undefined. He was for “Hope,” and “Change.” I guess this worked if you really didn’t like the previous guy and his policies. Than, anything different would be good, right? Anyway, so after he gets elected what happens? Well, effectively he just continues the policies of the previous administration. He keeps fighting the wars. He keeps Gitmo open. He continues TARP and even keeps some of the same guys in charge of fixing the economy. He starts his own war (though not a land way,) for, I think, thinner reasons even then Bush did. Like Bush, he is for big government. He institutes a health care reform act, which, as far as I can tell really hasn’t changed anything or helped anybody, but, it did make my benefits go up and become more complex. So, in the end, if I was looking for hope, or change, what I got instead was blame on the previous guy and more of the same. Now, I think that’s kind of our own fault. You don’t vote for somebody and give them the Presidency based on the audacity of hope, especially not a first term senator without a real plan or specifics. At least, not if you are smart you don’t. It’s kind of our own fault we are in this economic mess, not Clinton, or Bush, or Obama. Interest rates were low and we spent more than we could afford to, and because interest rates were so low, we did not pay attention to make sure we got value for what we purchased. Now, we have to live the mistakes we made, and we have to pay for them. It happened on the government level, corporate level, and the individual level. We are a debtor, consumer nation. It’s our fault. There are specific villains, yes. But largely, let’s face it. It’s our fault as a people. * * * What this has to do with the occupiers is that I think it’s more of the same. It’s this undefined blame. This hiding from responsibilty, this kind of willful blindness that seems to have become very fahionable recently. I saw that video, and everybody was asked to describe a word for why they were there (suspiciously nice production values, suspiciously hot chicks, btw,) I heard “freedom, anger, blame…” all kinds of shit. What I didn’t here was… “work.” ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1603 "2011-11-04T00:30:53Z")
More People Joined Credit Unions Since BofA’s Debit Fee Controversy Than In All Of 2010: Survey > **[More People Joined Credit Unions Since BofA's Debit Fee Controversy Than In...](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/new-credit-union-account-openings_n_1074550?ref=business)** > > More People Joined Credit Unions Since BofA's Debit Fee Controversy Than In All Of 2010: Survey Saturday, November 5 is “Bank Transfer” and “Move Your Money” day. MoveOn has a cute, one minute video here, called "The Single Biggest, Game Changing Thing You Can Do This Weekend: [The Single Biggest, Game-Changing Thing You Can Do This Weekend](http://front.moveon.org/the-single-biggest-game-changing-thing-you-can-do-this-weekend/) I’m not sure who is driving these two movements- Occupy, MoveOn, Anonymous (it’s also Guy Fawkes day), but it is another thing that seems to be happening primarily because of the Occupy events. Another feather in their caps. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1604 "2011-11-04T00:57:17Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > If I take a look at Obama (who I voted for BTW,) and think about his campaign, I recognize now that it seems to me his message was deliberately vague and undefined. He was for “Hope,” and “Change.” I guess this worked if you really didn’t like the previous guy and his policies. Than, anything different would be good, right? > > Anyway, so after he gets elected what happens? Well, effectively he just continues the policies of the previous administration. He keeps fighting the wars. He keeps Gitmo open. He continues TARP and even keeps some of the same guys in charge of fixing the economy. He starts his own war (though not a land way,) for, I think, thinner reasons even then Bush did. Like Bush, he is for big government. He institutes a health care reform act, which, as far as I can tell really hasn’t changed anything or helped anybody, but, it did make my benefits go up and become more complex. > > So, in the end, if I was looking for hope, or change, what I got instead was blame on the previous guy and more of the same. > > Now, I think that’s kind of our own fault. You don’t vote for somebody and give them the Presidency based on the audacity of hope, especially not a first term senator without a real plan or specifics. At least, not if you are smart you don’t. > > It’s kind of our own fault we are in this economic mess, not Clinton, or Bush, or Obama. Interest rates were low and we spent more than we could afford to, and because interest rates were so low, we did not pay attention to make sure we got value for what we purchased. Now, we have to live the mistakes we made, and we have to pay for them. It happened on the government level, corporate level, and the individual level. We are a debtor, consumer nation. > > It’s our fault. There are specific villains, yes. But largely, let’s face it. It’s our fault as a people. > > * * * > > What this has to do with the occupiers is that I think it’s more of the same. It’s this undefined blame. This hiding from responsibilty, this kind of willful blindness that seems to have become very fahionable recently. > > I saw that video, and everybody was asked to describe a word for why they were there (suspiciously nice production values, suspiciously hot chicks, btw,) I heard “freedom, anger, blame…” all kinds of shit. > > What I didn’t here was… “work.” Sorry you are unable to do your homework. The healthcare bill is a great start. Much of it has not taken effect and wont for a year or so, but the changes that have gone in are important and substantive, for instance 1. You can not be denied coverage for pre-existing conditions 2. Young adults can stay of their parents plan until 26 3. You can not be dropped because you got sick 4. No life time limit on care 5. Everybody is guaranteed emergency care 6. Small businesses get a tax cut to help out paying for Healthcare plans 7. Insurance companies have to spend 85 percent of revenue on health care 8. Increased funding for community health care centers There is a lot more. The plans for more healthcare changes were derailed by the Repubs who plan on removing even these beginnings as soon as possible. TARP was in effect . it was sold as the savior of the American economy. he could not kill it. It was voted in by congress and the senate. The economic mess is a product of greed and money coming together to control the government. Even after the Repub disaster ,the powerful will not give up their gains even if the country is put at risk. Are we at fault? Sure we allowed Bush to do some terrible things and were stupid enough to have faith in him and his policies. Americans believed him. He should have been thrown out on his ass. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1605 "2011-11-04T01:06:51Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Sorry you are unable to do your homework. The healthcare bill is a great start. Much of it has not taken effect and wont for a year or so, but the changes that have gone in are important and substantive, for instance > > 1. You can not be denied coverage for pre-existing conditions > 2. Young adults can stay of their parents plan until 26 > 3. You can not be dropped because you got sick > 4. No life time limit on care > 5. Everybody is guaranteed emergency care > 6. Small businesses get a tax cut to help out paying for Healthcare plans > 7. Insurance companies have to spend 85 percent of revenue on health care > 8. Increased funding for community health care centers > There is a lot more. The plans for more healthcare changes were derailed by the Repubs who plan on removing even these beginnings as soon as possible. Ok. Perhaps I am wrong and hings will be better later. > [@](#): > > TARP was in effect . it was sold as the savior of the American economy. he could not kill it. It was voted in by congress and the senate. Yes, but you’ll remember that Bush involved him in the process and got his prepproval. Then he implemented QE2, all on is own nd has been arguing for a QE3 Nobody made him do that. > [@](#): > > The economic mess is a product of greed and money coming together to control the government. Even after the Repub disaster ,the powerful will not give up their gains even if the country is put at risk. > Are we at fault? Sure we allowed Bush to do some terrible things and were stupid enough to have faith in him and his policies. Americans believed him. He should have been thrown out on his ass. Can ou stop with the idiotic popoganda? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1606 "2011-11-04T02:36:09Z")
But poopoganda is what gonzo’s do bestest! -XT ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1607 "2011-11-04T03:42:59Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > …but you’ll remember that Bush involved him in the process and got his prepproval… Well, he might, I sure as heck don’t. I’m wondering if there might not be a bit of coy artistry in that choice of the word “preapproval”? If he hadn’t of approved, it would not have gone forward? And if that isn’t the case, then it was really more like a briefing, wasn’t it? More like “For your information, here’s what we’re gonna do.” Your wording implies complicity, a notion the begs for substantiation. Have any, by some chance? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1608 "2011-11-04T04:24:56Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I saw that video, and everybody was asked to describe a word for why they were there (suspiciously nice production values, suspiciously hot chicks, btw,) I heard Checking in on my theory that the main opposition to these protests is based primarily on either lying or just being blind, here’s a fun study in either cognitive dissonance, if we’re charitable, or bias and integrity, if we’re accurate. Here’s every single one-word response take from that video: I don’t know umm Future Greed Interested A job Afraid Freedom Frustration Revolution Justice Solution Encourage Solidarity Tragedy Disparity Dissemination Because Journalism Posterity Truth Humanity Corruption Frustration Change Passion, probably… anger What **Scylla** (as a stand-in for every stodgy pooh-poohing head-in-the-sand, heel-dragging, willing to dissemble as much as possible to discredit the idea that something important is manifested in these protests stereotype-monger) heard: > [@Scylla](#): > > “freedom, anger, blame…” all kinds of shit. > > What I didn’t here was… “work.” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1609 "2011-11-04T05:12:28Z")
Wait, nobody actually said shit? I don’t mean nobody said shit, I’m sure people said a lot of shit, I mean, nobody said the exact word “shit”? I would have said “shit”. Especially if I had spent the last thirty days sitting in a tent smoking dope. If they let me have more than one word, I might say “limp watches draped over stark tree limbs axolotyl sundae.” But if its only going to be one word, yeah, “shit” would be it. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1610 "2011-11-04T08:21:04Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > No I don’t. I think at the time that that right was recognized, it needed to exist because there was no other way for the people to assemble and force their government to take notice other than to go somewhere and force the issue. The inconvenience that this caused everybody else was a necessary byproduct. > > Now, there are alternatives, and getting a message out does not require that you fuck over everybody else who is simply trying to live their lives without interference. I apply this equally. I don’t think those crazy baptists have any right to fuck up funerals, and I don’t think those protesters have any right to stand in front of abortion clinics and coerce and harangue women who are dealing with a difficult and private decision. > > What makes me take this stance is that I think the purpose of protests has been hijacked. I gather in the past that it was a necessary way to gain the attention of the government. There was no instant media like we have now. So, now, protesters bring attention to their cause by inconveniencing and victimizing other people which produces media value. Protesters are trolling. > > Ok. I’m going to submit this bad boy and do the second part so it doesn’t get lost again. Once bitten twice shy. What _would_ you recommend? I mean, for fuck’s sake, the media for all intents and purposes _completely ignored_ the public occupation movement until it was about a month in. Instant media? I hate to break it to you, but a group of tweets, facebook status updates, and youtube clips is not going to change things in any meaningful way. They’re incredibly easy to overlook and ignore. 20,000 people squatting in Times Square? Not so much. No, I’m sorry, there _still_ is no other effective, let alone better, way of making the government see than public protests, unless I’m missing something. There’s a big difference between watching a CNN report about a group on facebook with 200,000 likes that decries the actions of wall street and having to drive past a group of 20,000 protesters every day on your way to and from work. > [@Scylla](#): > > Next, you pulled up some stories from the 53% people. I’m glad you agree that there is some pretty hard ass shit there. > > I think you miss the point, though. Those people don’t want help. They don’t want the government to take care of them. They are not whining. They also generally aren’t paying attention. Look, when some people are making a fortune on what is essentially gambling with _your_ money, and you’re living in squalor after working your ass off for years, then you’d have to be either completely brainwashed by the “Fuck the commies” routine of the 70s and 80s or just fucking stupid. The point isn’t that they are complaining. The point is that they _should be_, and the fact that they aren’t indicates that they are phenomenally stupid. [www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN2LZ8N2uj0](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN2LZ8N2uj0) Vid most definitely related. > [@](#): > > These occupiers bitch because they got what? A degree in art history, have a tough time finding a job, and don’t want to pay back the loan? It’s not just guys in Art History. It’s also, you know, pretty much everyone else. https://www.youtube.com/embed/wfjdP9K0UWI?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque Again, first half of this vid most definitely related. The basic gist of it is that a lot of people bought into the “Go to college, get a somewhat sensible degree, and you’re _bound_ to find a job somehow” story, which… suddenly collapsed around 2006. Now they’ve sunk years of their life and tens of thousands of dollars into a degree that may or may not help them even get off the ground. Hell, the guy speaking has a degree in biology and genetics, and _he_ can’t find a job worth a damn. You gonna count Genetic Biology to the same category as Art History? Never mind that when he started his degree, it was _the shit_ and basically guaranteed you a job in that field. > [@](#): > > They don’t want to pay for their house? What with their underwater mortgages that obviously every idiot could’ve seen coming? Like, my dad’s house? > [@](#): > > They blame somebody else for what is largely their failure? Uh… no. They never failed. They went to college. They more often than not chose a sensible degree. They worked hard and did what they could. But then the system turned around and kicked them out on their asses. When a man with a PhD can’t find a job, what exactly did he fail? > [@](#): > > Everybody has bad luck. Most of us go through tough times. Some of us deal with it without blaming somebody else, camping out in a park, and smoking dope while running from their responsibilities. And some of you are morons who can’t see the overarching problem. Again, if you’re stuck in a shit situation and you aren’t angry and frustrated, you’re stupid. I personally have no right to complain–I live in Germany, and Germany is actually doing really, really well. But those guys who believed the story that their parents told them, who went to college, busted their asses, succeeded, and _still got fucked by the system_ because the financial and political institutions are broken to hell and back? They have every right to be angry, and every right to demand change to that system. We are, after all, a fucking democracy. And their demands aren’t even too extravagant–pull the ridiculous amount of corporate money out of politics, reinstate Glass-Steagal (the repealing thereof was pretty much responsible for most of the recent financial bullshit bubbles; this should be a no-brainer to _everyone_ in politics), raise taxes to what they were under _Reagan_, close blatantly abused tax code loopholes… This shit is not unreasonable. It should be fucking obvious to the government. But no, they’re just commie fags bitching because they failed somehow, because every one of them majored in women’s studies or art history or homeopathy and fucked themselves. :rolleyes: > [@Scylla](#): > > Anyway, so after he gets elected what happens? Well, effectively he just continues the policies of the previous administration. He keeps fighting the wars. He keeps Gitmo open. He continues TARP and even keeps some of the same guys in charge of fixing the economy. He starts his own war (though not a land way,) for, I think, thinner reasons even then Bush did. Like Bush, he is for big government. He institutes a health care reform act, which, as far as I can tell really hasn’t changed anything or helped anybody, but, it did make my benefits go up and become more complex. > > So, in the end, if I was looking for hope, or change, what I got instead was blame on the previous guy and more of the same. … > **[World in a Day 2022 - Supporting #DoddieAid](https://worldinaday.com/)** > > World in a Day is back in support of the brilliant Doddie Aid, which is getting people active in January 2022 and fundraising to find a cure for MND. You’re a moron. Obama has been _incredibly_ effective, while being dogged by needing 60% on _every_ vote (yep, no blame on the idiots in the Republican party there) _in his first two years_. If he passes anything worthwhile or sensible before 2012, I’ll be fucking shocked–after all, to quote the leaders of the house, their goal is to make Obama a one-term president, not _actually solve our problems_. > [@](#): > > What this has to do with the occupiers is that I think it’s more of the same. It’s this undefined blame. That reminds me of a great sign I saw: “Those who say we have no goals is either lying or can’t read”. > [@](#): > > This hiding from responsibilty, this kind of willful blindness that seems to have become very fahionable recently. Again, I don’t know how I can explain this to you: _the system has failed_. In the USA, Wall Street _has_ fucked Main Street up the ass, and now these people, who have worked their asses off and, for some bizarre reason, _still failed_, are pissed. Dammit dude, what you seem to be missing is that they’re not hiding from responsibility. Their situation just sucks. What responsibilities? The responsibility to pay off their debts? No shit–they can’t find a job. They’re not hiding, they’re not shirking, they simply cannot fulfill it because the systems in place to help them fulfill it got destroyed. Again, I fail to see how we’re living the American dream when educated, bright young people can work their asses off, get through college, and _still_ can’t find a job. And then suddenly because you can, you didn’t get lucky, you just worked harder? That’s bullshit and you know it. There are other places where these problems don’t exist. Germany. Denmark. Sweden. There is no reason our income inequality should be on par with the third world rather than the old world. There is no reason that our financial sector should be able to jack up the price of oil by investing in it. There is _no reason_ that we should have lower tax rates on the upper brackets than anywhere else in the world, and demand higher taxes on the 49% who barely earn enough to live. The system is flawed, fucked, and does not work, and if you succeeded, it’s because you got in before everything broke down, or you got very, _very_ lucky. > [@](#): > > I saw that video, and everybody was asked to describe a word for why they were there (suspiciously nice production values, suspiciously hot chicks, btw,) I heard “freedom, anger, blame…” all kinds of shit. > > What I didn’t here was… “work.” Actually, “jobs” was in there. Do me a favor and actually watch it, you moron. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1611 "2011-11-04T08:42:56Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Another thing that kind of pisses me off is that the banks and the investment industry are the face, the scapegoats of the current financial crisis. I know there is a lot of legitimate blame there, but I don’t think it is the main or even one of the main underlying clauses. I think that blaming the investment industry is really an excuse not to view the deeper, more fundamental problem. > > That problem was, and still is, incredibly cheap credit. We have had stupendously low interest rates since 2002 and it has fueled irresponsibility across all levels of society, individuals, corporations, the government, everybody stopped focusing on the cost of things because credit was cheap so cost didn’t matter, and went on a great big spending spree that continues to today. > > The real fundamental mechanical problem was and is low interest rates. That fueled everything else. 1. Real interest rates were lower during the 1970s. So your explanation is weak. 2. At least until, the lesser depression, when nominal rates crashed due to Fed easing and a liquidity trap which made looser policy ineffective. 3. Liar loans had nothing to do with cheap money. 4. Sorry, but the investment banks and mortgage providers are to blame, along with the regulators and commentators who enabled them. Oh yeah and the rating industry. A less proximate but highly relevant cause was a fundamental misunderstanding about the financial industry among the great and the good. Market fundamentalism and its milder incarnations had too strong a grip on our thought processes: we’re still trying to break free. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1612 "2011-11-04T12:28:33Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, he might, I sure as heck don’t. I’m wondering if there might not be a bit of coy artistry in that choice of the word “preapproval”? If he hadn’t of approved, it would not have gone forward? And if that isn’t the case, then it was really more like a briefing, wasn’t it? More like “For your information, here’s what we’re gonna do.” Your wording implies complicity, a notion the begs for substantiation. > > Have any, by some chance? No. Sorry if you don’t remember. Not my problem. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1613 "2011-11-04T12:43:45Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > 1. Sorry, but the investment banks and mortgage providers are to blame, along with the regulators and commentators who enabled them. You place no blame on the people who actually took the loans out? It’s all the fault of the big bad banks, who put a gun to the heads of the borrowers? How about all the other Dem groups, including ACORN, who sued banks, accusing them of redlining? Therefore resulting in more loans to people who had no business owning houses (because, after all, it’s the American dream.. what are you, racist?..) Hell, your boy Obama was even involved in one of those suits in 1994, a class action against Citibank. Look up Docket / Court 94 C 4094 ( N.D. Ill. ) FH-IL-0011 sometime. Sub-prime loans were the stuff of which the toxic derivatives were made, and it was not some idle whim or fancy of the bankers that led to the proliferation of sub-prime loans. > [@](#): > > Oh yeah and the rating industry. It was the pressure of the CRA that led to the invention of the concept of the “credit score” so as to diminish the discretion of lending institutions. Credit scores in turn became a driver of the expansion of credit to ever less creditworthy borrowers. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1614 "2011-11-04T12:52:24Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > You place no blame on the people who actually took the loans out? It’s all the fault of the big bad banks, who put a gun to the heads of the borrowers? Yes, because the banks are in the position of allegedly being able to judge risk. Instead, they waived issues of risk and then built an investment numbers racket on top of it. Which then snowballed with all the participants deciding that if “everyone” is doing it, you can’t be held responsible. And then they doubled down by selling insurance on that “can’t fail” basis. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1615 "2011-11-04T12:55:45Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > 1. Real interest rates were lower during the 1970s. So your explanation is weak. Not really. Low real interest do not mean that credit is easy. The real Interest rate wasn’t low because rates were low. It was low because inflation has high. If you have high interest rates and higher inflation rates than you can have negative real interest rates in an environment very unfriendly to borrowing. This is exactly what we had in the 70s. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1616 "2011-11-04T12:58:29Z")
Measure: We seem at an impasse. You blame the lenses and absolve the borrowers. I blame both. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1617 "2011-11-04T13:13:00Z")
I think it’s fair to place some blame on the lenders who took loans they couldn’t afford, but Scylla, I don’t think you place nearly enough blame on the Bankers. Remember, they’re the people whose job it is to avoid loans like this. -.- ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1618 "2011-11-04T13:25:18Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > I think it’s fair to place some blame on the lenders who took loans they couldn’t afford, but Scylla, I don’t think you place nearly enough blame on the Bankers. Remember, they’re the people whose job it is to avoid loans like this. -.- Yes. I have plenty of blame. One of the biggest villains is Stan O’neill. He should be put in prison. Here’s the thing though, largely the decisions were made at the executive level. Everybody in the entire industry has been vilified for their actions. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1619 "2011-11-04T13:27:44Z")
BPC I’ll hit your larger post later when I have more time. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1620 "2011-11-04T13:40:25Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > Yes, because the banks are in the position of allegedly being able to judge risk. Instead, they waived issues of risk and then built an investment numbers racket on top of it. Which then snowballed with all the participants deciding that if “everyone” is doing it, you can’t be held responsible. And then they doubled down by selling insurance on that “can’t fail” basis. Really. So you place no blame at all on the people who took out loans that _they knew_ (or should have known) that they couldn’t afford. I know that lefties aren’t big on making people live with the consequences of their choices, so I guess I shouldn’t be surprised. You’d fit right in with the spoiled-children at OWS; why should they have to pay back their student loans, right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851.md?page=80) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851.md?page=82)