# \#OccupyWallStreet **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 19, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851 "2011-09-19T18:27:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 82
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1621 "2011-11-04T13:42:34Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > How about all the other Dem groups, including ACORN, who sued banks, accusing them of redlining? Therefore resulting in more loans to people who had no business owning houses (because, after all, it’s the American dream.. what are you, racist?..) > > Hell, your boy Obama was even involved in one of those suits in 1994, a class action against Citibank. Look up Docket / Court 94 C 4094 ( N.D. Ill. ) FH-IL-0011 sometime. What does [redlining](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining)have to do with subprime loans? Unless you are suggesting we should go back to allowing banks to profile borrowers based on their address instead of their credit worthiness. Things were not better in the olden days. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1622 "2011-11-04T13:59:06Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Really. So you place no blame at all on the people who took out loans that _they knew_ (or should have known) that they couldn’t afford. > > I know that lefties aren’t big on making people live with the consequences of their choices, so I guess I shouldn’t be surprised. You’d fit right in with the spoiled-children at OWS; why should they have to pay back their student loans, right? Feel free to continue making up things I didn’t say. If regular folks should have known, how much MORE should banks have known? The banks deliberately made loans that were bad. Why would people guess that banks might make a loan that the bank reasonably knew was bad? People in general don’t have that much understanding of loans, and in particular, the people that the banks preyed on were even less likely to know. Thanks, but I paid my student loans. But people like you aren’t interested in facts other than the ones they fabricate. There’s a difference between making people deal with the reasonable foreseeable consequences of their actions and holding them responsible for fraudulent deals with no bank supervision robo-signed in violation of the law. The banks acted criminally. But they’re too big to fail and even though they’re “persons” before the law, they share many of the rights, but few of the responsibilities therein. Did some people take loans in a speculative manner? Certainly. But compared to the industry wide fraud on the part of the banks it was a drop in the bucket. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1623 "2011-11-04T14:16:55Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > You place no blame on the people who actually took the loans out? It’s all the fault of the big bad banks, who put a gun to the heads of the borrowers? I place the lion’s share of the blame on the banks. In the end, there are two indisputable facts: 1. they were a responsible, signing party to both the mortgages as signed AND packaging them as securities. 2. In the case of them lending money to citizens, they were in a position of having far greater knowledge, power, and earned trust. Let’s face it, before the 2000s, most of the time when a mortgage broker or loan officer told you that you could afford or not afford a loan, he was telling you the honest truth as he saw it with his years of experience. That stopped being true. And that’s before we even get into the fraud and outright lies perpetrated by some members of the financial community when issuing these mortgages. I expect Joe Average to think hard when told he’s going to be spending 50% or more of his paycheck to buy a house, but I also don’t fault him when an ostensibly knowledgeable bank officer tells him “Of course you can afford it, it’ll be a little tight at first, but houses never really go down in value so it’s all gravy from here on out.” ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1624 "2011-11-04T14:42:56Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > You place no blame on the people who actually took the loans out? No. Capitalism stand or falls on its claim that the most efficient way to allocate resources for the betterment of humanity is to allow people freedom of choice. The magic market hand makes all these choices come out all simply super. The individual consumer, exercising their free choice cannot by definition be held responsible for market failures. Now either things all really are simply super or the Rapacious Unregulated Capitalist version of the market economy has failed. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1625 "2011-11-04T14:51:46Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > … the market economy has failed. “…has failed again.” Minor correction, hope you don’t mind. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1626 "2011-11-04T14:54:23Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > No. Capitalism stand or falls on its claim that the most efficient way to allocate resources for the betterment of humanity is to allow people freedom of choice. The magic market hand makes all these choices come out all simply super. > > The individual consumer, exercising their free choice cannot by definition be held responsible for market failures. > > Now either things all really are simply super or the Rapacious Unregulated Capitalist version of the market economy has failed. It does not appear to me that you have a clear understanding of free market theory. As far as I’m aware, nobody, not even the drunkest dumbest most ignorant free market thinker ever said or wrote that the magic hand makes all out ones “simply super,” or even anything close to that. For you to suggest otherwise or even to suggest that capitalism stands or falls on such a thing is laughable. Let this be a warning to you. Be careful before you invoke the magic hand for a tugger, lest you be severely chafed by the absence of the lubrication of reason. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1627 "2011-11-04T15:14:08Z")
[http://thebell.us/2011/04/alan-greenspan-on-adam-smith’s-‘invisible-hand’-2/](http://thebell.us/2011/04/alan-greenspan-on-adam-smith%E2%80%99s-%E2%80%98invisible-hand%E2%80%99-2/) Greenspan drank the Kool Aid and made many stupid statements about our economy and the worlds. He also invoked the “invisible hand” regularly, claiming the financial sector was self regulating. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1628 "2011-11-04T15:18:27Z")
Did he turn a blind eye while drinking the kool aid with the invisible hand? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1629 "2011-11-04T15:23:57Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > No. Sorry if you don’t remember. Not my problem. Never happened. Lying sack of weasel shit. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1630 "2011-11-04T15:33:32Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Never happened. Lying sack of weasel shit. Use google. Or stop smoking so much Cheeb and maybe your memory will improve. Anyway, I already told you, no cites for you. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1631 "2011-11-04T15:36:49Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > It does not appear to me that you have a clear understanding of free market theory. As far as I’m aware, nobody, not even the drunkest dumbest most ignorant free market thinker ever said or wrote that the magic hand makes all out ones “simply super,” or even anything close to that. > > For you to suggest otherwise or even to suggest that capitalism stands or falls on such a thing is laughable. > > Let this be a warning to you. Be careful before you invoke the magic hand for a tugger, lest you be severely chafed by the absence of the lubrication of reason. You are an idiot. That is precisely what the whole ‘hidden hand of the market’ is about. And I know more about economic theory than you’ve forgotten. Jackass. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1632 "2011-11-04T15:52:16Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Anyway, I already told you, no cites for you. How about me? Any cites for your made up fairy tales? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1633 "2011-11-04T16:01:28Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Use google. > > Or stop smoking so much Cheeb and maybe your memory will improve. Anyway, I already told you, no cites for you. Google! Good idea! “Bush advised Obama about TARP”. Hey, a cite! [http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tom-blumer/2009/03/13/record-shows-obama-was-board-tarp-september-every-bit-socialist-bush](http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tom-blumer/2009/03/13/record-shows-obama-was-board-tarp-september-every-bit-socialist-bush) **“Record Shows Obama Was On Board with TARP in September and Every Bit as Socialist as He Claims Bush Was”** Newsbusters. _Exposing and Combatting Liberal Media Bias_ A blog by Tom Blumer. Punch line: his source for this isn’t Obama, but Sen John Kerry… > [@](#): > > …John Kerry, clearly speaking for the Obama campaign, told Chris Wallace on Fox News… John Kerry was “clearly speaking for the Obama campaign”? You remember John Kerry, don’t you, **Scylla**? The same fellow you excoriated and slandered in these very pages as a liar and a traitor? But on this, you will grant him your indulgence, on this, he’s telling the truth? Tell you what, **Scylla** : i’ll quit smoking weed, you quit lying. I’ll have an easier time of it. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1634 "2011-11-04T16:27:07Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > You are an idiot. That is precisely what the whole ‘hidden hand of the market’ is about. And I know more about economic theory than you’ve forgotten. Jackass. You’re fucking kidding, right? You’re saying the invisible hand makes all transactions turn out super, and free market theory fails if they all don’t. That is what you said, what I laughed at and you reiterated, right? And you are claiming to be an economist or some kind of economic expert? I just want to triple check that this is what you are really claiming. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1635 "2011-11-04T16:30:14Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Google! Good idea! “Bush advised Obama about TARP”. Hey, a cite! > > [http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tom-blumer/2009/03/13/record-shows-obama-was-board-tarp-september-every-bit-socialist-bush](http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tom-blumer/2009/03/13/record-shows-obama-was-board-tarp-september-every-bit-socialist-bush) > > **“Record Shows Obama Was On Board with TARP in September and Every Bit as Socialist as He Claims Bush Was”** > > Newsbusters. _Exposing and Combatting Liberal Media Bias_ A blog by Tom Blumer. > > Punch line: his source for this isn’t Obama, but Sen John Kerry… > > John Kerry was “clearly speaking for the Obama campaign”? You remember John Kerry, don’t you, **Scylla**? The same fellow you excoriated and slandered in these very pages as a liar and a traitor? But on this, you will grant him your indulgence, on this, he’s telling the truth? > > Tell you what, **Scylla** : i’ll quit smoking weed, you quit lying. I’ll have an easier time of it. I think you are high now. Your cite is comparing Caine to Clinton. Anyway, I love you but stop spamming me with this idiocy. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1636 "2011-11-04T16:30:23Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > And you are claiming to be an economist or some kind of economic expert? Well, in his defense, if you’ve only forgotten one teensy bit about economic theory, he’s claiming to have more knowledge of it than that one teensy bit. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1637 "2011-11-04T16:34:39Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You remember John Kerry, don’t you, **Scylla**? The same fellow you excoriated and slandered in these very pages as a liar and a traitor? But on this, you will grant him your indulgence, on this, he’s telling the truth? Uh, your “you excoriated and slandered in these very pages as a liar and a traitor” should read, “you and others excoriated and revealed him to be a liar and a traitor on these very pages”. Minor correction. Hope you don’t mind. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1638 "2011-11-04T16:34:53Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > How about me? Any cites for your made up fairy tales? Seriously? Seeing as you put it like that, no. First off you haven’t made a specific request, and second off since you are calling whatever it is you are questioning a “made up fairy tale,” that tells me your mind is already made up. So, since you haven’t bothered to be specific about what you want, and you’ve already told me that whatever it is you are questioning is a fairy tale, I’ll assume you’re just being an asshole and wasting my time. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1639 "2011-11-04T16:36:57Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Well, in his defense, if you’ve only forgotten one teensy bit about economic theory, he’s claiming to have more knowledge of it than that one teensy bit. > > 😉 Ha! He almost had me there. He’s actually claiming to know very little. That I can believe. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1640 "2011-11-04T16:38:04Z")
Am I the only one here who, while disagreeing on a fundamental level with Scylla, thinks the amount of hate being thrown around is a little over the top? Just wondering… This is not a productive way to lead a conversation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851.md?page=81) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851.md?page=83)