# \#OccupyWallStreet **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 19, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851 "2011-09-19T18:27:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 89
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1761 "2011-11-06T17:41:32Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I’m in the chamber. We give a shit about the community and the jobs because we live in the community. We are the community as muh as anybody else. > > The Chamber, Rotary, kiwis all those other service organizations, a lot of people all make fun of them, and think they are are self-serving. I sit in on my local Chamber of Commerce. To be very charitable, I find your experience VERY different from mine. Around here, they’re in the service of the community provided that community is making more than $150k or so a year–if not, they’re in favor of the community shutting up and accepting as low wages as possible. I wouldn’t put them in the same universe as Kiwanis, Rotary, Lion’s, etc., all of which have been composed of generally decent people in my experience. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1762 "2011-11-06T17:42:37Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Every business would do that, and that’s OK. That you wouldn’t do so is one of the reasons you don’t have your own business. My dad wouldn’t, and he’s going on 35 years in business and happy as a clam. Neither would my current company, 15 years in business and counting. Sorry to burst your bubble, but being socially responsible in business is a damn good plan. SOMEONE has got to buy your shit, and paying your own employees enough to buy lots of stuff is the A-1 way of creating an economy in which that happens. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1763 "2011-11-06T17:58:01Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Nope. I just call it as I see it, which is an old woman and her escort trying to make their way through a small protesting crowd to the street. The protesters continue to chant and jostle, and she falls down the stairs in the press. Like I say: “They sure showed her.” > > Now you not seeing that is your problem, not mine. That you cannot tell the difference between a peaceful protest and being dangerously overly aggressive makes you no better than those who say that the cop was only doing his job when he tossed a flash grenade into the group who were helping an injured protester. > > A few words of advice, though: stop trying to defend the indefensible, for it only makes it easier for shitstains like hyperbolic Scylla to make his points. At 27 seconds, which you specify, there is a smallish jostling crowd. In the background, we see one youngish, bearded man’s head above the crowd, facing us, and what may very well be the granny-lady in question, moving past him to our left. Maybe. Hair color matches, and we get a flash of the red clothing, so likely her. His head disappears suddenly, the camera pans to shoes, and the next thing we see is the aforementioned granny lady, lying on the sidewalk. If I were to take a stab at it, I would say it looked to me as if someone shoved the bearded guy back and he fell, his head disappears so suddenly. So maybe? Somebody shoved him, he lost his balance, toppled her as well? Maybe she shoved him? \* But even that has to be conjecture, there just isn’t enough there to make a judgment. I mean, for me, apparently not for you. In the case of the injured soldier, there is no such ambiguity. Equivalence epic fail. \*Actually sort of happened to me. I live in cold and icy winters here. One day, many years ago, I was walking downtown in full counterculture regalia. (We wore peaches in our regalia, onions were not yet the style…) Anyway, sauntering along, and I hit one of those spots in the sidewalk where liquid oxygen pools reduce the friction to about zero. One step, and involuntarily airborne. I went into Minnesota reflex mode, alerting all body parts especially southward body parts that impact with the sidewalk is imminent. And, of course, flailing my arms about wildly. Story short: seized a little old lady and flung her bodily to the ground. Suddenly, I’m lying on the sidewalk surrounded by glaring, scowling people, some with eyes darting about as if seeking a convenient lamppost. Apologies unavailing, I slunk away as best I could. Oh, and cracked a rib. Which I didn’t really know until I sneezed. Ever spend two weeks praying you don’t sneeze again? Now, I have my faults, and its a long damn list, but hurling little old ladies to the ground ain’t on it. Shit happens. Mostly. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1764 "2011-11-06T18:05:47Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Sorry to burst your bubble, but being socially responsible in business is a damn good plan. SOMEONE has got to buy your shit, and paying your own employees enough to buy lots of stuff is the A-1 way of creating an economy in which that happens. Reminds me of the story (probably apocryphal) of Henry Ford II and UAW president Walter Reuther walking through a Ford factory. Ford gestures at all the robotic assembly machines and says to Reuther, “How are you going to get them to pay union dues, Walter?” With missing a beat, Reuther shoots back, “How are you going to get them to buy cars, Henry?” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1765 "2011-11-06T18:08:44Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I sit in on my local Chamber of Commerce. To be very charitable, I find your experience VERY different from mine. Around here, they’re in the service of the community provided that community is making more than $150k or so a year–if not, they’re in favor of the community shutting up and accepting as low wages as possible. > > I wouldn’t put them in the same universe as Kiwanis, Rotary, Lion’s, etc., all of which have been composed of generally decent people in my experience. Confused from Minneapolis writes: This what you think of them, and you “sit in on my local Chamber of Commerce”? Clearly, I’m missing something here. Sure, “Belly of the Beast”, maybe, but still…? And the anti-cootie protocol? In that environment, you would have to go all out, weapons-grade pachouli oil, which I cannot, in any other circumstance, recommend. Advise. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1766 "2011-11-06T18:15:44Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Reminds me of the story (probably apocryphal) of Henry Ford II and UAW president Walter Reuther walking through a Ford factory. Ford gestures at all the robotic assembly machines and says to Reuther, “How are you going to get them to pay union dues, Walter?” With missing a beat, Reuther shoots back, “How are you going to get them to buy cars, Henry?” [http://web.bryant.edu/~ehu/h364proj/summ\_99/armoush/page3.html](http://web.bryant.edu/~ehu/h364proj/summ_99/armoush/page3.html) \*The Five Dollar Day \* Boiled down, Ford offered very high pay for his workers, at least in part to address the very point of the anecdote. He also insisted on a paternalistic intrusion into their lives as a condition > [@](#): > > …he “must show himself to be sober, saving, steady, industrious and must satisfy the…staff that his money will not be wasted in riotous living.”… He is quoted as saying “The payment of five dollars a day for an eight-hour day was one of the finest cost-cutting moves we ever made,”. As for some of his other views, the less said the better… ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1767 "2011-11-06T18:23:21Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I sit in on my local Chamber of Commerce. To be very charitable, I find your experience VERY different from mine. Around here, they’re in the service of the community provided that community is making more than $150k or so a year–if not, they’re in favor of the community shutting up and accepting as low wages as possible. > > I wouldn’t put them in the same universe as Kiwanis, Rotary, Lion’s, etc., all of which have been composed of generally decent people in my experience. May generally be a local thing. Our Chamber is pretty cool. Im sure not all are. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1768 "2011-11-06T18:28:38Z")
Seems like lately I’ve heard of local Chambers disassociating themselves with the national body, due to concerns about its poltical stances. For instance: > **[Alaska Town Leaves U.S. Chamber, Citing Politics](https://www.npr.org/2011/09/30/140944826/alaska-town-leaves-u-s-chamber-citing-politics)** > > The Homer, Alaska, Chamber of Commerce has withdrawn its membership from the National Chamber of Commerce. Businesses in the small fishing village say the national Chamber does not represent their concerns about taxes or climate change. Only a... ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1769 "2011-11-06T18:43:29Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Confused from Minneapolis writes: This what you think of them, and you “sit in on my local Chamber of Commerce”? Clearly, I’m missing something here. Sure, “Belly of the Beast”, maybe, but still…? > > And the anti-cootie protocol? In that environment, you would have to go all out, weapons-grade pachouli oil, which I cannot, in any other circumstance, recommend. > > Advise. If there’s never one progressive voice, there probably won’t ever be two. Then four. Etc. Gotta do what you gotta do. The only way it’ll GET to the idyllic highs that Scylla waxes rapturous about is one voice at a time and one vote at a time. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1770 "2011-11-06T18:55:44Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I find it hard to attribute blame to malice based on this film. No shit, Sherlock. Only a fool would think that the protesters deliberately and maliciously singled out the elderly woman and thew her down the steps. What the protesters did was (1) set the stage by being densely packed and aggressive in front of the door and at the steps, and (2) did not make way for the elderly woman who was trying to exit the area. That resulted in the jostling that knocked her down. Quite simply indefensible, for they did not take reasonable care and consideration in their actions. Absence of malice is not relevant. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1771 "2011-11-06T19:25:36Z")
Your analysis is consistent with the evidence, but isn’t supported by it. There is very little to go on, here. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1772 "2011-11-06T19:42:36Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > [http://dailycaller.com/2011/11/05/oakland-occupiers-officials-take-stock-of-costs/](http://dailycaller.com/2011/11/05/oakland-occupiers-officials-take-stock-of-costs/) The Daily Caller?? They make Fox News look fair, balanced, and like actual journalists by comparison. Next you’ll be citing Herman Cain. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1773 "2011-11-06T19:45:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Household income measured over a multiyear period is more equally distributed than income measured over one year, although only modestly so. Given the fairly substantial movement of households across income groups over time, it might seem that income measured over a number of years should be significantly more equally distributed than income measured over one year. However, much of the movement of households involves changes in income that are large enough to push households into different income groups but not large enough to greatly affect the overall distribution of income. Multiyear income measures also show the same pattern of increasing inequality over time as is observed in annual measures. [CBO](http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=12485), “Trends in the Distribution of Household Income Between 1979 and 2007,” October 2011. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1774 "2011-11-06T19:47:57Z")
> [@](#): > > …One high-profile real estate developer said he stood in the lobby of his historic office building next to the encampment early Thursday morning and sent vandals at the door scattering when he racked his loaded shotgun. > > “I felt the need to defend the janitorial workers, staff, the building, and myself,” developer Phil Tagami said in a statement Friday… OK, so he was threatening people with a loaded shotgun, but hey! At least he has a proper respect for private property! From **Scylla** ’s cite, quoted by **Arty** , above ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1775 "2011-11-06T20:07:53Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Did they shut down the port? > > Yes they did as I linked. > > Are they scaring off businesses? > > Yes they are, as I linked. > > Did a women get raped? > > Yes. Several did, as I linked. > > In one instance at least did the occupyiers not notify the police and simply run the guy off? > > Yes they did, as I linked? > > Did rapist then come back and rape somebody else? > > Yes he did, as I linked. > > Are those that let him go, responsible for allowing the next women to get raped. > > I would say so. > So what part of what i wrote don’t you like? Just the part where you are bullshitting. For instance, the sum total of evidence you have to offer about letting the guy go so he could come back is in the ABC link, where Mayor Bloomberg says: > [@](#): > > …There have been reports, which are equally as disturbing, that when people in Zuccotti Park become aware of crimes, instead of calling the police, they form a circle around the perpetrator," Bloomberg said. > > People in the park then “chastise him or her and chase him or her out into the rest of the city to do who knows what to who knows whom,” the major said. > > Bloomberg called that “despicable and … outrageous” behavior which makes “all of us less safe.”… I trust that the difference between “there have been reports” and proof is not lost on you? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1776 "2011-11-06T20:17:00Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I’m done with debating you in this thread. > > I know that won’t exactly break your heart, but I generally am willing to debate even people like Shodan and Clothahump and Starving Artist who almost never have a decent argument to make, so I figure a word is warranted. > > All you’re about is assertions, and not about evidence or even decent argument. > > You’re the guy in the bar who thinks he can win arguments by shouting his opinion louder. > > You’re the only one in a dick-swinging contest here. The rest of us are having a debate. > > The only thing you’ve provided a decent argument for is some stuff about investment strategies, and that has fuck-all to do with this thread; it was a digression from a digression. > > So have fun with the others. I’m done with you. So this was just the usual lying bullshit that I’ve come to expect from my favorite, trolling drama queen. Is anything you say ever true? Do you ever actually do what you say? You sure laid it on thick, and I let you have the last word. I didn’t even respond to all that. I kinda figured that if you weren’t trolling you would do what you said you would, and the most honorable thing I could do would be to just let it go, which I did. On the other side of the coin, what I figured was that if you were just being an asshole and a troll, if you didn’t get the reaction you wanted from that you’d come back and try again. You wouldn’t be able to help it, even if it proves you to be a liar. I didn’t have to wait long to see which way that would go, did I? Go ahead and tell me some more about what I am. You’ve **proven** what you are. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1777 "2011-11-06T20:30:22Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > OK, so he was threatening people with a loaded shotgun, but hey! At least he has a proper respect for private property! > > From **Scylla** ’s cite, quoted by **Arty** , above How was he threatening anyone? If I was walking by and saw him doing that I wouldn’t have feel threatened. Maybe that’s because I had no plans pr desire to enter his building and create havoc. But that’s just me. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1778 "2011-11-06T21:32:32Z")
You read the part about where he “racked” (cocked) the shotgun, yes? While not necessarily a hostile gesture in and of itself, it is preperatory to a hostile gesture, i.e., blowing your shit away. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1779 "2011-11-06T21:48:12Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You read the part about where he “racked” (cocked) the shotgun, yes? While not necessarily a hostile gesture in and of itself, it is preperatory to a hostile gesture, i.e., blowing your shit away. They generally won’t fire without a round in the chamber. Personally, I disagree with what the man did. I would never display a gun as a warning. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1780 "2011-11-06T22:36:20Z")
Well that’s why I never put a round in the chamber. And just to be extra safe, I don’t have the chamber, either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851.md?page=88) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851.md?page=90)