# \#OccupyWallStreet **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 19, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851 "2011-09-19T18:27:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 98
**Author:** ![Cyclone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/db5fbb/32.png) [@Cyclone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyclone)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1941 "2011-11-12T02:14:55Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Someday I’d like to see a governmental entity NOT accept a settlement, and justifiably crush any institution that performs illegal activities. > > While I’m dreaming, I’d like a pony. I read that book, “There’s got to be a Pony.” Agree with you completely. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1942 "2011-11-12T10:22:40Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > And a major loss for the Ohio taxpayer. …What? Hang on, the ability for teachers, firemen, and the police to _have some leverage in their terms of employment_ is a major loss for the taxpayer? Excuse me for pointing this out, but just because the people who create the terms of the job are elected by the general public does not mean that it is automatically cushy and wonderful. While the teacher’s union may not be the best example for this, the ability for people in professions like this, _especially_ ones that matter so much for our future, to apply some leverage to their working conditions should not be limited to the ability to contribute a tiny sliver of influence to someone in office who probably has other priorities. Claiming that just because their jobs are public sector, they should have no control over them is essentially saying that the public sector is useless as an employer in terms of efficiency and pricing. This is not true in the sectors where part of people’s jobs isn’t making their own salary–i.e. teachers, firemen, policemen, other non-legislative public employees. > [@](#): > > On another note, I [see](http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/11/10/8739200-occupy-wall-street-protesters-interrupt-bachmann-speech) that the spoiled children who are dressing up and playing protester managed to disrupt a speech. No matter what you think of any particular politician, this kind of stuff just shows that they have no class and a highly overdeveloped sense of entitlement. Yay, spoiled kids! Like, say, the massive number of actual war veterans that tend to keep popping up at these protests for whatever reason. The working class folk. Man, what’s _that_ all about? > [@](#): > > As the Examiner put it, the protest isn’t about economic justice anymore (if it ever was). It’s about clashing with police and rescue workers when they show up to help after someone dies from a drug overdose. It’s about how many people in the encampments are learning about sexual assault awareness the hard way. That’s bullshit and you damn well know it. This shit isn’t, you know, _actually happening_. Open your fucking eyes and you’ll realize that the reality is a lot closer to a large, wide-scale protest of economic injustice, money in politics, and our broken financial institutions which are consistently being harassed by the cops. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1943 "2011-11-12T15:30:38Z")
> **[Examiner is back - Examiner.com](https://examiner.com)** > > Examiner.com is the go-to source for millions of people who want to know what's happening in their city. And we're still growing! Here is an article on Occupy Detroit by a local newspaper. The movement has decided to feed and clothe the homeless. In the beginning there were about 10 homeless people living in the park. Now there are at least 30 who have found a place to get warm and get fed. There is a medical tent and they supply haircuts too. There are stray dogs and families with kids. We have no social programs anymore. Budgets have been slashed and employees have been laid off. So the Occupiers have taken on the problems the city , state and federal governments have quit handling. There are some church and union donations too. But most of the stuff comes from people just dropping it off. There are problems. Some of the homeless are pretty crazy. They probably need meds or counseling. At every general assembly some crazies demand the right to speak. Then they rant on about their lives until they get tired of talking. Sometimes some pretty dangerous people come down . They scare everybody. Downtown Detroit is not a particularly safe place at night. You can hear gunshots sometimes. But most people understand the Occupation has good intentions and it alone. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1944 "2011-11-12T16:33:55Z")
Occupy Portland is on its way out. The mayor and the cops have bent over backwards to accommodate these folks, spending lots of taxpayer dollars for police overtime and absorbing the eventual cost of cleanup. But now the violent offenders, sexual predators, crazies, and drug users have moved into the encampments, so the city administration has said “enough”. They have until midnight tomorrow to decamp or be forcibly removed. I really hope Portland doesn’t make headlines like Oakland did. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1945 "2011-11-12T16:42:54Z")
Detroit is on its way out too. The police have not attacked the camp yet, so there is very little cost. They also have not been involved in any cleanup. The city , police and campers have been on very good terms so far, but the Thanksgiving Day parade is coming and the city wants them out before then. They are worried about Detroit’s image. Too late for that. The permit is good until 11-14 but the police are trying to push them out earlier. The local bars and restaurants will miss the business. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1946 "2011-11-12T17:13:09Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Occupy Portland is on its way out. The mayor and the cops have bent over backwards to accommodate these folks, spending lots of taxpayer dollars for police overtime and absorbing the eventual cost of cleanup. But now the violent offenders, sexual predators, crazies, and drug users have moved into the encampments, so the city administration has said “enough”. They have until midnight tomorrow to decamp or be forcibly removed. I really hope Portland doesn’t make headlines like Oakland did. Well, Oakland is kicking them out, too, so let’s hope they don’t make headlines like Oakland did! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1947 "2011-11-12T17:36:54Z")
I wonder is they realize they have lost the sympathy of the nonpartisan, misanthropic curmudgeon community? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1948 "2011-11-12T17:47:57Z")
**Dio** was banned not that long ago. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1949 "2011-11-12T18:16:12Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Let’s just start here. Why the hell is it you think this is some kind of gotcha? > > Let’s say you wear a 32" waistband in jeans, and I offer you a choice: You can have 38"s or 24"s. Do I then get to laugh at you for saying this one’s too loose, this one’s too tight? Simple. You complain about the banks for being of loose, then you complained that they tightened. You have never said, nor given any semblance of an argument or support or the notion that the banks are too tight. [quoteI am not arguing the same thing you think you’re defending. I’m accusing the banks of making deliberate, ongoing, and pervasive decisions.[/quote] Well I would hope the banks would make decisions, that they would do so on an ongoing basis, and that they would apply widely throughout the banks, so… [quoteI fully understand my own cite, and so what if I ignore the parts that disagree with me? I took the quotes from two people who ought to know something about loan demand, and that’s what I wanted from the damn news article. The fact that the article interviews other people doesn’t change the fact that the two people I quoted have the titles I mentioned and said the things that I quoted them as saying.[/quote] I don’t think you really understand it at all. I READ the methodology, ignatz. It’s a goddamn opinion survey. No hard data presented. If you read it you would know that there is oth qualitative and quantitative information obtained. You would also know that the board of governors, the Feds open market committee uses this data, and has in one form or another since the 60s to formulate monetary policy. It is, in fact, the sinle most important instrument for deriving insight into the demand side of credit that is in existence. But no. You don’t like it because it’s a survey. You dismiss it’s data and replace it with your personal opinion. There reaches a point where you are talking to somebody, and you realize that they are imply to ignorant and stubborn to reason with. You don’t know what you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1950 "2011-11-12T18:25:13Z")
It is not whether demand was down. It was ,you fine bankers crashed the economy after all. But the demand that was there was not served. Banks were happy to buy government bonds with no risk. The understanding was that banks would lend to companies to grow the economy. They did not. But since it was not zero, you can claim they were lending. [http://boss.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/24/more-lending-but-not-to-small-businesses/](http://boss.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/24/more-lending-but-not-to-small-businesses/) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1951 "2011-11-12T18:34:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > **Dio** was banned not that long ago. Excellent point, **John**. Sorta. I guess. Wait, what? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1952 "2011-11-12T18:37:21Z")
I had lunch with a friend who lives in that area in NYC. And he’s increasingly frustrated with the OWS crew for threatening local business and depositing feces on their property. He said one business stopped feeding them for free and received death threats and poo wrapped up in napkins. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1953 "2011-11-12T18:40:38Z")
Shit happens. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1954 "2011-11-12T18:42:16Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > He said one business stopped feeding them for free and received death threats and poo wrapped up in napkins. I heard the businesses were spitting in the food anyway. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1955 "2011-11-12T20:30:59Z")
You know what would be cool? A message board where anecdotal evidence is the only kind that is acceptable! Wow, that would be…no, wait a second, that would be stupid. Never mind. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1956 "2011-11-12T20:46:21Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > It is not whether demand was down. It was ,you fine bankers crashed the economy after all. But the demand that was there was not served. Banks were happy to buy government bonds with no risk. > The understanding was that banks would lend to companies to grow the economy. They did not. But since it was not zero, you can claim they were lending. > [More Lending, but Not to Small Businesses - The New York Times](http://boss.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/24/more-lending-but-not-to-small-businesses/) That article says small business loans have not increased. It does not say if that is because banks are not lending to small businesses in spite of demand. Or, if there is no demand. You’ve already conceded demand is down. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1957 "2011-11-12T21:11:27Z")
Yes I clearly said demand was down. i also said it was because you guys destroyed the economy. But the fact is many small businesses were screaming for help where none was coming. You bankers rejected small business loans because the fees are not large enough. You guys got fat on huge loans , mergers and acquisitions ,CDOs and SWAPS. Who wants to waste their time on small business loans? Of course small business is the engine of local employment. A restaurant or local construction company can not offshore it’s work. But why should you guys care? You want that bonus even if your bank nearly went out of business because you gambled with the institutions money. The tax payers bailed you out and your response was screw you, i want all I can get. I deserve a fine bonus. Don’t be surprised if it pisses people off. if they performed their job that badly, they would be fired.Hell millions lost their jobs and homes because of greedy bankers. They were working hard and doing a good job. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1958 "2011-11-12T21:22:56Z")
> [@Mr.Svinlesha](#): > > **Scylla:** > > \*\* > They are related though, in that both of them are moral judgements made by you. In the case of Bush, who did something I find utterly (and outrageously) morally reprehensible, and for which I think he should do hard time, you shrug your shoulders and say, “Meh. Company executive lie all the time. It’s a part of the job.” In the second case, in which people are exercising an important constitutional right to rectify perceived wrongs, you’re SHOCKED, I say, SHOCKED at the hypocrisy. I find your position to be profoundly inconsistent. Yeah, you think he should do hard time. Yet, he has not been charged. Nobody with even the slightest bit of authority has even seriously tried. I’m sure you think it’s because of the innate corruptness of the system, or cronyism, or some other thing, but, the rest of us realize that, frankly, what you are suggesting is a crackpot view. On the other hand, I am talking about hypocrisy, and usually Bush is generally credited with saying what he meant, so you don’t even have that to make the comparison stick. Finally, and I mean this without rancor. 4 years later, I am no longer entertaining crackpot views on Bush. [Moveon.org](http://Moveon.org). > [@](#): > > I bring it up because I often perceive a very strong bias among you right-wingers. When your side does something wrong – even something profoundly wrong - you admit that yes, maybe, they should not have done that. It was wrong. But if the left does something wrong – even something that maybe isn’t all that wrong – you are outraged, I say outraged, sir! at their shocking immorality! It’s a rhetorical trick, you see? You – and by that, I mean conservatives in general – constantly work to minimize the wrongs on your side commits while rhetorically exaggerating the wrongs committed by leftists. > \*\* I find this remarkable. I typically consider you to be a fairly smart and astute guy, even if we often differ in our outlooks. But, this frankly surprises me. What you are talking about is not a conservative failing. It is a human failing. All humans do it. It’s called bias. Ironically, by suggesting this is a conservative trait you are committing the exact same bias you accuse conservatives of. > [@](#): > > I agree with this, in the sense that sometime the rights of one person have to be balanced against the rights of someone else, and that these can come into conflict. When that happens, it’s not always easy to figure out who’s rights should be abdicated, and sure, reasonable people can disagree about how to resolve the conflict. > > But I should point out this wasn’t what you were arguing earlier. You were arguing that we had become so technologically advanced that protesting was now obsolete, and should therefore be banned. You even admitted it was a strange view for you to hold in your first or second post on the issue. Actually, that was my view. I thought I described it that way when I used the example of protestors at funerals or abortion clinics, or blocking traffic. Sorry if that wasn’t clear. > [@](#): > > The rational choice would be for most of the country to rise up, storm the castle, and demand change. I cannot for the life of me understand why you American types didn’t do this already years ago. I suspect it is the result of a particularly toxic mix of complacency, ignorance, insularity and ideological blindness. See [Gramsci, Antonio](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Gramsci), and the concept of cultural hegemony. I goota go with Isocrates on this one: “Democracy destroys itself because it abuses its right to freedom and equality. Because it teaches its citizens to consider audacity as a right, lawlessness as a freedom, abrasive speech as equality, and anarchy as progress.” > [@](#): > > You know, as far as this goes, I don’t disagree with you too much here. I also don’t really see how they get from here to there, hence my previous cynicism. They need to continue working on formulating more concrete goals, and in order for this to actually work it needs to become a mass movement. Given the ideological entrenchment of the American working and middle class, I just don’t see the latter happening. No. I see the predators and the real nuts descending and the whether getting cold, and a bunch of assholes going home without having accomplished anything besides damaging the economies and infringing upon the rights of those they claim to be helping. > [@](#): > > But even if we agree that they’re probably being unrealistic, I don’t despise them for at least trying to change things here at the bitter end of the human experiment, or dismiss them as a bunch of lazy, dope-smoking, irresponsible hippies. I do. Generally, I admire intelligence and strong execution even if I don’t agree with the goals, and despise sloth and sloppiness and lack of focus even if I do. > [@](#): > > So, let’s see – America is the greatest country on earth, with the greatest people on earth, until we actually have to do something about our social safety net. Then suddenly, Swedes are all superheroes with hammers. Right. > > Actually, you could fairly argue that both the German and French systems have in recent years surpassed the Swedish system in terms of service and effectiveness. The entire European continent provides the social services I enumerated above to it’s citizens, more or less. You’re not going to tell me the French are better than Americans as well, are you? The French?\* The French and the Germans are part of the EU. The French are doomed. The Germans will come out ok. Almost nobody else in the EU will. It will probably destroy Swedens economy as well. I can’t tell. Greece doesn’t get fixed. Ireland doesn’t. Spain doesn’t. Portugal doesn’t. France doesn’t. It’s really simple math, and all that is happening now is the forestalling of the inevitable. I really don’t care about the promises these countries made to take care of their citizens. Why? Because they are worthless promises. They can’t sustain the expense of their social programs and it’s likely to destroy the economies of most of Europe. But again, I hope I’m wrong. Frankly what is happening over there makes our CDO crisis look sober and conservative. > [@](#): > > As far as the crisis in the 90s goes, there were a lot factors, but certainly the major one was the refusal of the Swedish government to float it’s currency, which was at that time pegged to the dollar. Interestingly, however, in these tough times, instead of cutting down on social services, Sweden doubled up – and came out smelling like a rose. Yes. I know. I think you very lucky. If you are playing blackjack and you hit on 18 and get a three, that does not mean you are smart > [@](#): > > But you actually just hand-waved your way through the substance of that section of my post – could you go back again and tell me what you actually object to in it? Do you think the class struggle in Sweden was wrong? Were workers wrong to band together into unions, protest, and fight for their rights? How do you think that process took place, what it looked like? Do you think the Swedish working class just passively accepted its lot, like the 53% you linked to above, and even defended the status quo? Is that how you think real social change comes about? I only know what happened in broad outline. Frankly, my understanding is not enough to judge it on the level you’ve taken it to. > [@](#): > > And while you’re at it, could you explain to me why you think the Swedish system is “awful”? Really high taxes, I think 1/3 of the country works for the government, a ponzi scheme of social programs that are doomed to collapse. Things like that. [quote\Blame, blame, blame. You really are stuck on the blame issue, aren’t you? There’s enough to go around.[/quote] Not particularly. I simply resent the ignorance that places all of it on a few scapegoats. > [@](#): > > Granting freely that other factors are also in the picture, CDOs were a major component, and greed on Wall Street, along with the fact that Wall Street and the big banks own our government for all practical purposes, and make laws that benefit the 1% at the expense of the rest of us. Not true? That’s like four things there. Frankly, I think the whole 1% argument is bullshit. Everybody gets a fucking vote. It doesn’t matter how rich you are, or how poor you are. And, if anything, our recent political history shows us that power is in the hands of the people. There are a few rich people in Baltimore, and DC, and Atlanta but do they elect the mayor? No. The entire citizenry elects their representatives to make the laws. If we think our representatives are in the pocket of the 1% we have the right and the ability to vote them out and replace them with people who are not. We don’t have to sit in a park. > [@](#): > > I do apologize for that Epcot ride though, on behalf of all Sweden. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1959 "2011-11-12T21:24:31Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Yes I clearly said demand was down. i also said it was because you guys destroyed the economy. But the fact is many small businesses were screaming for help where none was coming. You bankers rejected small business loans because the fees are not large enough. You guys got fat on huge loans , mergers and acquisitions ,CDOs and SWAPS. Who wants to waste their time on small business loans? > Of course small business is the engine of local employment. A restaurant or local construction company can not offshore it’s work. But why should you guys care? You want that bonus even if your bank nearly went out of business because you gambled with the institutions money. The tax payers bailed you out and your response was screw you, i want all I can get. I deserve a fine bonus. > Don’t be surprised if it pisses people off. if they performed their job that badly, they would be fired.Hell millions lost their jobs and homes because of greedy bankers. They were working hard and doing a good job. Well, that’s an interesting theory. Do you have any data to support it? Anything to suggest that what you are saying is true? Do you even have any anecdotes? A link to a picture of a pony? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851/1960 "2011-11-12T21:59:48Z")
You have been presented with page after page of citation, quotation, and fact. if you remain steadfastly ignorant of them, that is hardly **Gonzo** ’s fault. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851.md?page=97) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/occupywallstreet/596851.md?page=99)