# "Ocean's 11" (remake) cons **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 10, 2003, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oceans-11-remake-cons/167851 "2003-04-10T19:01:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![The\_Tof](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@The\_Tof](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tof)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oceans-11-remake-cons/167851/21 "2003-04-11T19:55:12Z")
There is some confusion going on here about the movie. So, let me clear these up first. > [@](#): > > ## quote: > > ## Originally posted by Miller I’d guess the “Boeske” would have been the guy who pretended to have a heart attack. An old man with lots of money, like Ivan Boeske. Boeske was part of the Savings and Loan scandal, so that makes obvious sense as slang for any sort of finance swindel. > > It’s spelled Ivan Boesky, and he was convicted of securities fraud (insider trading), not the Savings & Loan scandal. But you’re right, I think Boesky refers to Gould’s character. This was mentioned earlier, but just to clarify. The heart attack guy was Saul, not Gould’s character. > [@](#): > > ## quote: > > ## Originally posted by Labdad Remember the Memorex commercial when Ella Fitzgerald hits the high note and shatters the glass (and then her voice on Memorex tape does the same thing)? My impression is that’s the “Ella Fitzgerald” they’re talking about, and it refers to the nuclear pulse thingie that knocked out the power all over Vegas for 20 or 30 seconds. > > Wasn’t the EMP a last-minute thing since the demolition of the older casino resulted in the city finding out about the “weakness” that Basher was going to exploit to cut the power (therefore, the “Ella Fitzgerald” thing is probably referring to something else)? Yes. The original plan was to take out the electricity in the grid, but the city had previously found the weakness in the system they planned to exploit. The “Pinch” was a workaround they came up with at the last minute. The point is, Ella Fitzgerald couldn’t have referred to this, as the original plan would have been to blow the grid. OK… So, here are the lines from the movie: > [@](#): > > Rusty: You’d need at least a dozen guys doing a combination of jobs. > Danny: What do you think? > Rusty: Off the top of my head, I say, looking at a Boeski, a Jim Brown, two Jethro’s and a Leon Spinx, not to mention the biggest Ella Fitzgerald…ever! So… that means we have Boeski/Jim Brown/2 Jethro’s/ a Leon Spinx and one big ass Ella Fitzgerald. It doesn’t specify whether these refer to the con jobs or to the people, but I’d say it refers to the people they need. So, lets look at the 11 and what their role was. (I forget their names/real or in the movie… so go with me here 🙂 ) Danny Ocean and Rusty. I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t list themselves among their needs so we can rule them out as any of the listed ones. The Bernie Mac character. His role mostly appeared to be to get a job within the casino so that Matt Damon could pull his whole NGC con against Andy Garcia, and pickpocket the combo. The Matt Damon character. Had a variety of jobs, but was picked as a skilled pickpocket more than anything. The Carl Reiner character. Used to create a distraction amongst the security crew. The Chinese guy. They refer to him as the Grease Man, needed for his athletic abilities. Basher. Was an explosives expert. The Elliot Gould character. Needed him to pay for everything. The Electronics guy. Needed him to hack into the hotels security, phones and electronics. Casey Affleck and the Other Guy-- Used as the workhorses so to speak. My guesses: Boesky= Elliot Gould’s character. Boesky was not only rich, but was an insider. Gould’s character bankrolled the operation, but was also a casino operator and had inside access to casino operations. Jim Brown= Basher. I’m not entirely sure about this one. Jim Brown was a RB for the Browns, arguably the best ever at this position. But I think this does refer to his demolition work in the Dirty Dozen. The 2 Jethro’s I’m pretty sure refers to Casey Affleck and the other guy. They didn’t have a big role to play other than the grunt work and the occasional distraction type thing. The last two are the hardest. Leon Spinx was a boxer. Best known for upsetting Muhammad Ali. I’m gonna take a guess and say Bernie Mac. Why? Id on’t know really. His character appeared to be pretty strong. (His handshake with the car dealer. His fight with Damon during the NGC scam) I really am not sure about this one though. The Ella Fitzgerald, I have to believe is the Julia Roberts character. This doesn’t really fit into anything regarding their scam, and she isn’t technically one of the 11. But considering how much they build up her character, this seems to make the most sense. Just my thoughts ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oceans-11-remake-cons/167851/22 "2003-04-11T20:15:10Z")
Ella Fitzgerald can’t be Julia Roberts because Rusty has no idea that she’s at the hotel. He only finds out after Matt Damon reports back on her. Let’s look at the cons the 11 pulled. Do any of them have names? ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oceans-11-remake-cons/167851/23 "2003-04-11T20:47:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Screeme \* > The Bernie Mac character. His role mostly appeared to be to get a job within the casino so that Matt Damon could pull his whole NGC con against Andy Garcia, and pickpocket the combo. I don’t know about this. The night of the heist, that was his role, but he did a lot of preliminary reconnaissance work. Also, I don’t remember the film that well, but doesn’t Rusty (Brad Pitt) say just after the line in the OP that they’re also going to need somebody to bankroll it all? It seems unlikely to me that he’d mention Rupert (Elliott Gould) twice. I think it’s instructive think what Rusty would be thinking - what would they need to do, exactly? They’d need normal old con artists to get information, and someone to bust into the vault. Someone to distract security and someone to drive getaway seem fairly obvious as well. ---
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oceans-11-remake-cons/167851/24 "2003-04-11T20:58:26Z")
I agree that it’s probably the cons as opposed to the perpetrators. I think the two jethros throws everyone into that mode b/c of Virgil and Turk, but “The biggest Ella Fitzgerald… ever.” doesn’t seem to suggest a person to me, but a scam. “Goals” at the time of the conversation between Danny and Rusty: 1. access and control the video cameras 2. access the vault from the inside 3. access the vault door codes 4. blow the grid 5. remove the money 6. deflect blame “Cons” I can identify: 7. Saul gaining access to the to store his “waluables”, and then causing a distraction to cover the switch of the security cameras. _The Lyman Zerga Con_ 8. Frank Catton getting a job as a dealer to get background, and to engineer the situation where Linus can have physical contact with Terry to lift the vauld door codes. _The Blackjack Con_ 9. Virgil and Turk pretending to be guards at the casino to deliver The Amazing Yen, among other things. _The Mormon Brothers’ Cons_ 10. The big dude (Bucky?) who pretends to be beating up Clooney for an hour to shift suspicion from him. _The False Beating Con_ 11. Livingston Dell using the card access to splice the video cable. In fact, the entire video splice in and replacement with tape could be one big con. _The Video Con_ 12. The big con- the entire team suits up as the swat team to get the money out of the building while Terry’s men are distracted by the video of the vault. _The “Holding the Money Hostage” Con_. I still think this is a fools errand, but I’m bored and it’s friday afternoon. ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oceans-11-remake-cons/167851/25 "2003-04-11T21:03:14Z")
I don’t think Rusty could have known about _The “Holding the Money Hostage” Con_ at that point, because he didn’t know about the fake vault. Remember when Danny (George Clooney) is talking about building a simulation of the vault, and Rusty says, “For practice?” “Something like that.” ---
**Author:** ![Anamorphic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/anamorphic/32/3057_2.png) [@Anamorphic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anamorphic)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oceans-11-remake-cons/167851/26 "2003-04-11T21:11:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Achernar \* > **I don’t know about this. The night of the heist, that was his role, but he did a lot of preliminary reconnaissance work. Also, I don’t remember the film that well, but doesn’t Rusty (Brad Pitt) say just after the line in the OP that they’re also going to need somebody to bankroll it all? It seems unlikely to me that he’d mention Rupert (Elliott Gould) twice.** Also, keep in mind that Bernie Mac was the _first_ person on board; Danny went to see him in Atlantic City as soon as he was released from prison. So he was involved in the plan before the conversation in question even occured. It could probably be assumed then, if he was to take care of one of the jobs in question, Danny would tell Rusty, “Oh, we’ve already got Frank for that”, no? So I’m guessing Bernie Mac’s character is not one of the ones in the list. BTW, I agree that this is a very fun film. Maybe not a _great_ film, but I’m a sucker for heist films, and I’m a sucker for stories about Vegas, and I love Soderbergh, so you can see how this film really did it for me. ---
**Author:** ![Anamorphic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/anamorphic/32/3057_2.png) [@Anamorphic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anamorphic)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oceans-11-remake-cons/167851/27 "2003-04-11T21:18:38Z")
Oh, and here’s a [thread](http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0240772/board/flat/479966) from the IMDb boards on the same subject. I haven’t read it carefully yet (heading out the door right now), but scanning through it quickly, it looks like they’ve covered some theories that haven’t been brought up here. ---
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oceans-11-remake-cons/167851/28 "2003-04-11T23:01:54Z")
Actually a very interesting thread. Here’s a bit of a sum-up: > [@](#): > > Boesky - I was thinking that Bernie Mac, being hired as a dealer, was an inside man. Then I watched Behind the Scenes again, and they labeled him THE INSIDE MAN, so I was convinced. > Jim Brown - Linus, a pickpocket, lift and carry. Makes sense. > Miss Daisy - Twins - drivers, good with cars. Okay. I had to change my mind about that one because you couldn’t have both a Miss Daisy (the way I thought it was originally) and an Ella and only one Saul. > Jethroes - the Twins. That was always pretty obvious. > Leon Spinks - Basher. Knock-out punch. Explosives. > Ella F. - Saul. This is a little tougher. Apparently Ella wasn’t a diva, but she must have commanded a lot of attention when she walked in a room. She was also in several movies, so maybe she was dramatic. She had heart trouble. She must have been wealthy. This is the closest thing to Lyman Zerga that there is. Don’t know if I buy all this. I am enamored of another idea that had Saul as Miss Daisy, with his demands for attention, his distraction, his age and his wealth. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2003, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oceans-11-remake-cons/167851/29 "2003-04-12T04:23:27Z")
To keep in straight here’s the “eleven” Danny Ocean (George Clooney) Rusty Ryan (Brad Pitt) Frank Catton (Bernie Mac) Reuben Tishkoff (Elliott Gould) Virgil Malloy (Casey Affleck) Turk Malloy (Scott Caan) Livingston Dell (Eddie Jemison) Yen (Shaobo Qin) Saul Bloom (Carl Reiner) Linus Caldwell (Matt Damon) Basher Tarr (Don Cheadle) Now we have seven roles to fill: “a Boeski, a Jim Brown, a Miss Dasiy, two Jethro’s and a Leon Spinks, not to mention the biggest Ella Fitzgerald…ever” Danny and Rusty were together so they’re out. Frank Catton was already in. Linus Caldwell was brought in as a last minute addition, not part of the original plan. They’re also out. So Reuben Tishkoff, Virgil and Turk Malloy, Livingston Dell, Yen, Saul Bloom, and Basher Tarr were the seven men found to fill the jobs. I agree that Boeske would be a nickname for a crooked money man, so that’s Reuben Tishkoff. And the Malloys are definitely the Jethros. As I said before, I think Livingston Dell is Miss Daisy because he sat in the back and told people what to do. Basher Tarr is Ella Fitzgerald because uses explosives the way she shattered glass. So Yen and Saul Bloom are Jim Brown and Leon Spinks. If I had to guess I’d say Yen is Jim Brown because his skill is athletic. And maybe Saul is Leon Spinks because, like a boxer, he was supposed to take a dive. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2003, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oceans-11-remake-cons/167851/30 "2003-04-12T04:30:15Z")
And what about the biggest hole in the plot? The whole point was to make sure Benedict never knew who robbed him because he would take revenge. So everyone had to remain anonymous. When Benedict identified Danny Ocean, they had to create a sub-plot to alibi him so Benedict wouldn’t think he was involved. But there was one problem. After everything settled down, Benedict would surely look back on what had been happening the last few days and realize that Frank Catton’s firing had been part of the con. Benedict could then hunt down Catton whose name he had and Catton could then be forced to give up everyone else’s identities. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oceans-11-remake-cons/167851.md?page=1)