# Octuplet Mom: How ethical are fertility treatments for someone with 6 kids? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764 "2009-01-30T19:26:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764/61 "2009-01-31T16:14:42Z")
I doubt there are many peasants in Africa, China, or India with huge families who got them through IVF. This woman sounds like a hoarder, or someone who is addicted to something like shopping - it seems like she is addicted to having babies, and yes, she should have got counselling for that, not eight more babies. ---
**Author:** ![lavenderviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/cdc98d/32.png) [@lavenderviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lavenderviolet)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764/62 "2009-01-31T16:29:35Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I’ve known a huge variety of families- including polygamous families with 40+ kids. In all cases it was love, not numbers, that decided if the kids turned out well-adjusted. Humans are amazing adaptable creatures, and are perfectly capable of thriving in situations that are different than the “house in the suburbs” model. > > Not saying this particular situation is going to turn out well, but you never know. Anyway, we only get one life and we ought to be able to do what we choose with it. If this situation does turn out to be abusive to the kids, by all means do something. But we don’t even know this lady’s name, much less how good of a mother she is. It’s not our place to judge before anything has even happened. I think your point is interesting! (I also had no idea that Chinese babies don’t wear diapers…cool) I agree, the American middle class way of raising kids isn’t the only way to raise a happy kid, and maybe people do need to think outside the box when it comes to the issue of young/poor/alternative lifestyle parents. I think my biggest complaint with this isn’t the financial aspect, but that I don’t think the kids will get enough love or the right kind of attention in this sort of situation. Some African families surely have 14 kids, but not all at once like this, so the kids would be spaced out enough that each kid would get some individual attention (at least from older siblings if not the parents). I just don’t think it’s healthy for a kid to be lost in the crowd of siblings like these kids will be. The news is now reporting that the octuplet’s grandma says the mom is “obsessed” with kids and has been since she was a teenager, so it definitely sounds like mental illness might be an issue. Someone joked that this lady is like those people who hoard cats and dogs - I am starting to worry that might actually be true. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764/63 "2009-01-31T16:48:46Z")
> [@kjckjc](#): > > I think the reasoning for it: Six kids = lots of bills and headaches, but 14 = Oprah and Ty Pennington taking care of you and your kids for the rest of your life (house, college paid for, etc) That’s not really consistent with Grandpa’s “You’ll never see her again” prediction. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764/64 "2009-01-31T17:18:51Z")
> [@Cazzle](#): > > Just to restate what I just said in the other thread about octuplets, I don’t think a doctor has any business deciding how large his patient’s family should or should not be, or how many children they can afford to raise. Of course not. However, the doctor should be prescribing treatments based on _medical necessity,_ and restricting treatments based on danger to the patient. You don’t give a six-year-old breast implants, you don’t amputate somebody’s legs just because he asks you to, and you don’t perform fertility treatments on somebody who’s fertile. I can’t just walk into a hospital and demand a kidney transplant because I think it’s _fun._ ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764/65 "2009-01-31T17:25:21Z")
FYI, there are a few more details, including the mother’s name, in [this LA Times article](http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-octuplets31-2009jan31,0,6246659.story). And the family is well within its rights not to want the attention of the public and media. However, I hope that the child welfare agencies in California step in to determine whether the situation is appropriate. Edited to add that the article says that the county agency won’t step in unless someone complains. But I think _someone_ needs to check on them. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764/66 "2009-01-31T17:28:39Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > Of course not. However, the doctor should be prescribing treatments based on _medical necessity,_ and restricting treatments based on danger to the patient. You don’t give a six-year-old breast implants, you don’t amputate somebody’s legs just because he asks you to, and you don’t perform fertility treatments on somebody who’s fertile. I can’t just walk into a hospital and demand a kidney transplant because I think it’s _fun._ They are meant to give you counseling beforehand, after all. This woman sounds like she should have maybe been prevented. Or discouraged at least. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764/67 "2009-01-31T18:01:08Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > The mom lives with her parents and dad (ie: grandpa) is going to work as a contractor in Iraq to help pay for the new family. No mention of a father or fathers of the 14. That isn’t what the article says. They mention the grandpa, then mention the woman’s husband: > [@](#): > > The woman’s husband is expected to return to Iraq where he works as a contractor, the LA Times reported. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764/68 "2009-01-31T18:09:33Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > That isn’t what the article says. They mention the grandpa, then mention the woman’s husband: Sorry, could you link to the specific article that states that, please? Because the woman who had the babies doesn’t have a husband; she has an ex-husband. And he’s not the sperm donor for the fourteen kids. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764/69 "2009-01-31T18:16:45Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Sorry, could you link to the specific article that states that, please? > > Because the woman who had the babies doesn’t have a husband; she has an ex-husband. And he’s not the sperm donor for the fourteen kids. [Cite for the above.](http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-octuplets31-2009jan31,0,6246659.story) > [@](#): > > Angela Suleman said all the children are from the same sperm donor, but she did not identify him. Her daughter is divorced, but Suleman said the ex-husband was not the father. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764/70 "2009-01-31T19:29:54Z")
My quote came from the BBC article in\*\* Dio\*\*'s OP. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764/71 "2009-01-31T19:47:26Z")
> [@lavenderviolet](#): > > I think your point is interesting! (I also had no idea that Chinese babies don’t wear diapers…cool) I agree, the American middle class way of raising kids isn’t the only way to raise a happy kid, and maybe people do need to think outside the box when it comes to the issue of young/poor/alternative lifestyle parents. I think my biggest complaint with this isn’t the financial aspect, but that I don’t think the kids will get enough love or the right kind of attention in this sort of situation. > Some African families surely have 14 kids, but not all at once like this, so the kids would be spaced out enough that each kid would get some individual attention (at least from older siblings if not the parents). I just don’t think it’s healthy for a kid to be lost in the crowd of siblings like these kids will be. > The news is now reporting that the octuplet’s grandma says the mom is “obsessed” with kids and has been since she was a teenager, so it definitely sounds like mental illness might be an issue. Someone joked that this lady is like those people who hoard cats and dogs - I am starting to worry that might actually be true. :eek: Now THAT is scary. If we’re talking about “baby-hoarding”-is such a thing even possible, psychologically? **even sven** , I am NOT saying you should not have been born. I’m saying that in this case, there’s obviously something rotten in the state of Denmark. They don’t have to be rich, but she should make sure she has at least the resources to take care of these kids-for THEIR sake. And it looks to me like she cares more about having as many kids as she can-even when she so obviously can’t afford thte ones she has. And that’s not fair to the kids themselves, or to her mother. (Oh, and pissing all over the street?) ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764/72 "2009-01-31T22:52:42Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > Of course not. However, the doctor should be prescribing treatments based on _medical necessity,_ and restricting treatments based on danger to the patient. You don’t give a six-year-old breast implants, you don’t amputate somebody’s legs just because he asks you to, and you don’t perform fertility treatments on somebody who’s fertile. I can’t just walk into a hospital and demand a kidney transplant because I think it’s _fun._ Fertile women have fertility treatments all the time, mostly because they’re partnered up with infertile men. The Australian media seem to run a monthly story on Australians who go to the US to have “designer babies” (in fact, that’s one of the [main articles](http://news.ninemsn.com.au/health/736250/aussies-coughing-up-for-designer-babies) on Ninemsn’s new site today), paying to undergo IVF in the US where they can have genetic screening done on their embryo beforehand. The fertile and unmarried (shacked up, but unmarried) Angelina Jolie was [reported to have had IVF](http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24080901-5012980,00.html) to conceive her twins so ““she wouldn’t have to deal with the stress of trying to get pregnant”, the source said. “She could just knock it out.”” (Talk about your baby collectors…). I don’t think anyone in the Brad/Angelina camp has ever confirmed if that is true or not, so perhaps it should be taken with a grain of salt. You raise the issue of breast implants, but use the term “medical necessity”. No one needs breast implants, and if that was assessed on risk vs. medical need alone then no doctor could ever justify putting their patient through surgery in order to augment their chest - yet there are no shortage of breast implants as a quick browse of any magazine will attest. Assessing someone’s suitability to raise a child based only on how many children they already have is wrong if you aren’t also doing background checks to make sure they aren’t sex offenders, drug addicts, career criminals, or violent, neglectful or abusive people and AFAIK there are no such background checks undertaken. There’s no medical reason to assume that someone with six children can’t take care of another one, and families like the Duggars - where the 18 children seem to be well cared for and aren’t dipping into the public purse - or the Jolie-Pitt clan - where the parents can pretty much afford food, diapers and education for dozens of children as well as as many nannies, maids and whatever else it takes to care for them - prove that more than six kids does not automatically equal neglect and reliance on public welfare schemes. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764/73 "2009-01-31T23:42:50Z")
Show me the money! [Octuplets’ mother wants Oprah to turn her into a $2m TV star](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article5627531.ece) ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764/74 "2009-01-31T23:52:30Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Our middle-class lifestyle is a historical blink of the eye. Most of humanity has been raised by dirt-poor teenagers raising dozens of kids in mud huts and one-room shacks. I think it’s kind of rediculous that now, all of the sudden, you _need_ a minivan, a five bedroom house, a Baby Gap wardrobe and dinosaur shaped chicken nuggets in order to “ethically” have children. By our own standards, our grandparent’s households were positively abusive. > > Babies really don’t _need_ to cost that much. Travel anywhere and you’ll see babies that don’t need diapers, don’t need pre-packaged baby food, don’t need baby monitors or their own bathrooms or whatever. It’s more work, but it’s possible. Anyway, what a kid needs most of all is love, food, shelter, clothes, and health care. All of this (besides the health care) can be accomplished in all but the poorest places. If billions of people in the developing world can raise happy children, I promise that just about anyone in an American suburb can. > [@leander](#): > > Have you ever heard of mortality rates? What **leander** said. People living in primitive, poverty-stricken circumstances more or less accept the likelihood of premature death, of both people in their prime and infants. One reason people had a lot of children was in anticipation that not all would survive to adulthood. Not many resources were expended in keeping at-risk people alive. What do you suppose the chances would have been for all 8 of those “preemies” pulling through? In this modern middle-class society that you dismiss, we’re diverting a greater and greater proportion of our resources to health care, and much of what is driving up prices is the cost of keeping alive the very old and very sick as well as preemies and handicapped children. If you think we should set limits on how much we spend on health care an be a bit more willing to let people on the margins of life die, then at least you’d be consistent. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764/75 "2009-02-01T00:27:49Z")
**Even Sven,** as fantastic as your mom is, the woman in question is certainly not fantastic. These kids will get none of the needed attention from their mom-- more like a prison lunch with hamburger helper shovelled on to their plates, stacking them in the dishwasher and going to bed. This mom is nuts. If the previous link is true where she actually planned charitible support from an uncanny birth… I hope adoption was another possible clause in her financial plan. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764/76 "2009-02-01T01:06:26Z")
> [@leander](#): > > Show me the money! > > [Octuplets’ mother wants Oprah to turn her into a $2m TV star](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article5627531.ece) I think that she won’t make much, if anything, from media interviews and commercial sponsorship. For one thing, it was sort of a new thing when the McCaughey septuplets were born about ten years ago, and it’s not as unusual now. Plus given the existing six children and the overall weirdness, I think most companies will be too uncomfortable to get involved. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764/77 "2009-02-01T01:55:17Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I think that she won’t make much, if anything, from media interviews and commercial sponsorship. For one thing, it was sort of a new thing when the McCaughey septuplets were born about ten years ago, and it’s not as unusual now. Plus given the existing six children and the overall weirdness, I think most companies will be too uncomfortable to get involved. I hope you’re right, that companies and media personalities will be too uncomfortable to touch this. Sadly, history shows that the weirder, creepier, more fucked up – the more likely media and the general public will flock like moths to a flame. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764/78 "2009-02-01T02:17:15Z")
Actually, let me clarify that. I won’t be surprised to find her being interviewed. But those interviews will be about how weird this all is, not the sort of positive interviews that Kenny and Bobbi McCaughey got. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764/79 "2009-02-01T06:12:28Z")
Jesus-one is autistic-one of the original SIX, I might add-and even now her mother seems to think her daughter is somehow a “hoarder.” Yikes. I could just cry. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2009, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764/80 "2009-02-01T13:35:55Z")
> [@](#): > > **lavenderviolet** : …since it sounds like the mom doesn’t want to work a real job… Raising fourteen children under the age of six doesn’t sound like working “a real job”? I had to reread you post two or three times to be sure you really said that. **leander** , notice that the article that you linked to doesn’t quote the mother actually saying anything about wanting to be on Oprah. The **Times** does that a lot and doesn’t seem to be a very good source for accurate and reliable information lately. > [@](#): > > **Guinastasia** : The whole, “vagina, clown car” meme comes to mind. Jesus. I’m going to call my husband in here, show him your post to start his day right, and then go lie down and try to recover. I haven’t had any sleep and that line is just so deranged, you know… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764.md?page=5)