# Octuplet Mom: How ethical are fertility treatments for someone with 6 kids? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764 "2009-01-30T19:26:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764/101 "2009-02-03T12:46:09Z")
In Spain, the government will pay for certain fertility treatments (I don’t know the complete list, but there’s a limited number of methods and a limited number of tries) for couples who don’t have any children. You’ve got one, you’re told it’s a miracle you’ve managed to have that one, and you want more? Either make do with the one you have, or pay for it yourself. I think the rule is too strict as is, but the thing is, it’s clear and easy to enforce. And I definitely don’t think that someone who’s already got 6 kids (heck, someone who’s got 3) should be getting fertility treatments. Absolutely not from my taxes! ---
**Author:** ![Jayn\_Newell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jayn\_Newell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayn_Newell)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764/102 "2009-02-03T13:09:09Z")
> [@singular1](#): > > What is the whole “quiverful” thing? [QuiverFull](http://www.quiverfull.com/) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764/103 "2009-02-03T15:22:00Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > More specifically, in matters of fertility, leave it up to God. > > \<\ > The Gospel shows that **physical sterility is not an absolute evil**. Spouses who still suffer from infertility after exhausting legitimate medical procedures should unite themselves with the Lord’s Cross, the source of all spiritual fecundity. They can give expression to their generosity by adopting abandoned children or performing demanding services for others. > \>\> Right. But you contradict yourself a bit there - the Catechism correctly states that legitimate medical procedures are permitted (which is where fertility treatments always start) yet you in your original post state that these are immoral. When my wife and I experienced difficulties in this area, we looked at certain things to correct the problem, including measures to correct hormone levels. These were successful - we had three kids within two years. And none of the methods we employed were proscribed by the Catholic Church. I wonder, like most people, about the implications of many of these other methods employed - though as a rule I do not harshly judge those employing them. I know what we were going through at the time - and it was mild in comparison with other couples. Still, to say policy ought to address these concerns as a practical matter is just stating an obvious truism. ---
**Author:** ![Skara\_Brae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f0a364/32.png) [@Skara\_Brae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skara_Brae)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764/104 "2009-02-03T15:30:46Z")
The news this morning reported that the mother has hired a public relations firm, probably to counter the rising backlash. The news also interviewed a local fertility specialist, who stated that the entire procedure in “unethical,” and that no more than two embryos should ever be implanted. ---
**Author:** ![Jayn\_Newell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jayn\_Newell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayn_Newell)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764/105 "2009-02-03T15:32:17Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Right. But you contradict yourself a bit there - the Catechism correctly states that legitimate medical procedures are permitted (which is where fertility treatments always start) yet you in your original post state that these are immoral. Not to answer for **gigi** , but it would seem more logical to be against both fertility treatments and contraception. The Catholic church’s stance is a bit weird, in that most ways of avoiding pregnancy are proscribed, but yet some ways of altering the reproductive system in the other direction (towards conceiving) aren’t. Personally I’m not a fan of some fertility treatments, though I would certainly not prevent someone from going that direction. Just seems like a lot of trouble to go through when adopting would be easier. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764/106 "2009-02-03T15:35:52Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I think that she won’t make much, if anything, from media interviews and commercial sponsorship. For one thing, it was sort of a new thing when the McCaughey septuplets were born about ten years ago, and it’s not as unusual now. Plus given the existing six children and the overall weirdness, I think most companies will be too uncomfortable to get involved. [I was wrong.](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/01/30/national/a214200S49.DTL) She already has a public relations firm and “is being deluged with offers for book deals, TV shows and other business proposals.” ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764/107 "2009-02-03T15:44:36Z")
> [@Cazzle](#): > > Fertile women have fertility treatments all the time, mostly because they’re partnered up with infertile men. The Australian media seem to run a monthly story on Australians who go to the US to have “designer babies” (in fact, that’s one of the [main articles](http://news.ninemsn.com.au/health/736250/aussies-coughing-up-for-designer-babies) on Ninemsn’s new site today), paying to undergo IVF in the US where they can have genetic screening done on their embryo beforehand. The fertile and unmarried (shacked up, but unmarried) Angelina Jolie was [reported to have had IVF](http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24080901-5012980,00.html) to conceive her twins so ““she wouldn’t have to deal with the stress of trying to get pregnant”, the source said. “She could just knock it out.”” (Talk about your baby collectors…). I don’t think anyone in the Brad/Angelina camp has ever confirmed if that is true or not, so perhaps it should be taken with a grain of salt. > > You raise the issue of breast implants, but use the term “medical necessity”. No one needs breast implants, and if that was assessed on risk vs. medical need alone then no doctor could ever justify putting their patient through surgery in order to augment their chest - yet there are no shortage of breast implants as a quick browse of any magazine will attest. True, but ethical doctors do take into account the mental health of the patient when doing non-necessary medical procedures. I mean, sure, any plastic surgeon will probably give you a boob job. But was the doctor who did Michael Jackson’s work ethical? What about that weird socialite lady who had work done that makes her look like a cat? Should a doctor take care of any request just because the patient says they want it? IVF is stressful on the body, and not something to be taken lightly. Which is why I find the Angelina Jolie story a little far-fetched. If neither she nor Brad has fertility problems, a $30 ovulation predictor test probably would have taken all the stress out of trying to get pregnant. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764/108 "2009-02-03T16:06:35Z")
The whole thing sickens me. When I had my vasectomy, I was counseled by the doc that it would likely be irreversible. Good for him. But as my wife and I were in our early 40’s and clearly did not want kids, it was a good choice. Whatever “Dr” agreed to implant this nut case that already had 6 children is more interested in world records than the health of their patient. It’s absurd. The woman is a nut. “I’m not married, I have six kids, live at home, and my mom and dad are supporting me, but I want more kids”. This is where the guys with the white coats and nets are supposed to come into play. I suspect ‘grandpa’ went back to Iraq to fight because it would be safer and easier than staying at home. I don’t blame him. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764/109 "2009-02-03T17:16:35Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Right. But you contradict yourself a bit there - the Catechism correctly states that legitimate medical procedures are permitted (which is where fertility treatments always start) yet you in your original post state that these are immoral. > > When my wife and I experienced difficulties in this area, we looked at certain things to correct the problem, including measures to correct hormone levels. These were successful - we had three kids within two years. And none of the methods we employed were proscribed by the Catholic Church. My apologies–you’re right that treatments that don’t in any way remove the creation of the baby from the conjugal relationship are acceptable. I was talking along the lines of creating embryos outside the body, etc., and missed the other kinds of treatment. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764/110 "2009-02-03T18:11:18Z")
Fair 'nuff. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764/111 "2009-02-03T18:27:51Z")
> [@](#): > > Suleman had all 14 of her children through in vitro fertilization, according to her mother, Angela Suleman, who is caring for the other six while her daughter is hospitalized. I don’t really believe in ‘God’. I do believe that the universe is trying to tell you something when you can’t get pregnant the regular way. But you go on to do it FOURTEEN TIMES by the time your 32? Once or twice? Fine. Modern medicine and all that. Provided that you can prove that you can provide for them. What’s that? Your living at home and mom and dad are taking care of you? A doctor approved this? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764/112 "2009-02-03T23:46:01Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > I suspect ‘grandpa’ went back to Iraq to fight because it would be safer and easier than staying at home. I don’t blame him. Not that I mind you taking my joke (see post 51)\*, but the grandfather expects to be going to Iraq as a contractor, not a U.S. soldier. \*on the contrary, feel free to breathe new life into it. It didn’t go anywhere the first time. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764/113 "2009-02-03T23:56:12Z")
It sounded like she was living on student loans. I know that if you’re out for a year or if you’re determined to be making no progress toward a degree, those can come due. Pity she didn’t take her liking of children and decide to be a teacher. At least when I was taking student loans, becoming a teacher could get your loans forgiven. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764/114 "2009-02-04T01:18:47Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > Pity she didn’t take her liking of children and decide to be a teacher. At least when I was taking student loans, becoming a teacher could get your loans forgiven. Maybe she did decide to be a teacher, but realized she’s not really cut out for the rough-and-tumble of academic life on the public school campus. So she’s going to open a school of her own. AND supply the entire student body. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/octuplet-mom-how-ethical-are-fertility-treatments-for-someone-with-6-kids/483764.md?page=5)