# Odd NFL rule and response from a Ref **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [December 10, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-nfl-rule-and-response-from-a-ref/520759 "2009-12-10T19:48:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![whatami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/85f322/32.png) [@whatami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whatami)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-nfl-rule-and-response-from-a-ref/520759/1 "2009-12-10T19:48:38Z")
Another thread reminded me of a question I’ve had for some time. I generally get a new rule book every 4-5 years and make notations on rule changes in between getting new copies. I read through the rule book on occasion for fun (maybe odd, but I enjoy it) Anyway, a friend of a friend knows Ed Hoculi professionally and agreed to pass on my e-mail to him. Ed responded (very quickly I might add). I thought this might be an interesting tidbit for the dopers fans of the NFL. > [@whatami](#): > > Mr. Hoculi, > I’m hoping you can assist in a discussion that some friends and I are having with regards to a specific rule in the NFL, specifically having to do with a Point After attempt (or “Try” as defined in the rulebook). > > Quoting the 2005 Official Rules of the NFL, Game Action Edition; > > \*Rule 11. Scoring > Section 3. Try > Article 1 > After a touchdown, the scoring team is allowed a try. This try is an attempt to score one or two additional points, during one scrimmage down with the spot of the snap: > (a) Anywhere between the inbounds line and > (b) which is also two or more yards from the defensive team’s goal line. > > Note 1: All general rules for fourth-down fumbles apply to the try (See 8-4-2-Exc. 2), and the game clock will not run. > > Note 2: If the ball has been declared ready for play by the Referee, and the offensive team wants to change the location of the ball, they can do so by calling a timeout. > > During this try: > (a) If a try-kick is good, one point is scored. (The conditions of 11-5-1 must be met.) If a kick cannot score, the ball becomes dead as soon as failure is evident. > (b) If a try results in what would ordinarily be a touchdown by the offense, two points are awarded. If a touchdown is not scored, the try is over at the end of the play or if there is a change in possession. > (c) If there is no kick and the try results in what would ordinarily by a safety for the defense, one point is awarded to the offensive team.\* > > The question that has come up involves (c) above. > Could the offense merely snap the ball to a player and have that player run towards the defensive goal (98 yds.) and through the endzone, out of bounds, in order to create what would be a safety for the defense, and thus score one point? > > If so, it appears that that (b) above would allow the offense to line up at the other end on the field (away from their endzone) and simply snap the ball through the endzone and out of bounds for the safety, which would award them a point. What really confused me about the rule is that the attempting team is the only team that can score on a PAT, and the defense can’t have possession of the ball (once they obtain possession, the play is over). Ed’s response is > [@Ed Hoculi](#): > > Good question, Ben, particularly because of the way the rules are worded. Oftentimes, the rulebook for the NFL is far more difficult to understand than the rules (and statutes) with which I deal in my legal practice. > > Subparagraph (c) refers to a safety by the other team, though. Let’s make white the offense and red the defense. If there is a safety against white because White gets tackled in White’s end zone, nobody scores any points – the try is simply over. > > However, if there is a safety against red, white scores one point. This is very rare, because if red gets possession of the ball at any time during the down, the try is over and no points are scored. There are a few bizarre ways that it could happen, though. For example, if white fumbles the ball and while the ball is rolling loose at the 2 yard line, red kicks it into red’s end zone and out the back of the end zone, that would be a safety and white would receive one point. > > In other words, the safety must be against the team that starts the play on defense. If there is a safety against the team that starts the play on offense, no points are awarded to anyone. In the NFL, it is not possible for the team that starts on defense (red, in my example), to score any points on the try. I wonder if this type of play has ever happened. ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-nfl-rule-and-response-from-a-ref/520759/2 "2009-12-10T19:57:34Z")
I don’t know of a case in the NFL, but it’s happened in the NCAA before. It’s more likely to happen there (though still extremely unlikely) because the try doesn’t end if the defense gains possession of the ball. It happened in a Texas - Texas A&M game a few years ago. Also, in the NCAA, your suggested 98-yard backwards play would actually result in one point for the defense. ---
**Author:** ![whatami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/85f322/32.png) [@whatami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whatami)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-nfl-rule-and-response-from-a-ref/520759/3 "2009-12-10T20:09:29Z")
> [@borschevsky](#): > > I don’t know of a case in the NFL, but it’s happened in the NCAA before. It’s more likely to happen there (though still extremely unlikely) because the try doesn’t end if the defense gains possession of the ball. It happened in a Texas - Texas A&M game a few years ago. > > Also, in the NCAA, your suggested 98-yard backwards play would actually result in one point for the defense. Actually, it would result in 2 pts. (as long as it wasn’t a blocked kick, in which case it would be one.) ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-nfl-rule-and-response-from-a-ref/520759/4 "2009-12-10T20:12:37Z")
I thought if a 2 point conversion was attempted and the offense turned the ball over, the defense could return the ball for 2 points. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-nfl-rule-and-response-from-a-ref/520759/5 "2009-12-10T20:13:51Z")
> [@whatami](#): > > Actually, it would result in 2 pts. (as long as it wasn’t a blocked kick, in which case it would be one.) A blocked extra point is a dead ball, is it not? ---
**Author:** ![whatami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/85f322/32.png) [@whatami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whatami)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-nfl-rule-and-response-from-a-ref/520759/6 "2009-12-10T20:16:24Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > I thought if a 2 point conversion was attempted and the offense turned the ball over, the defense could return the ball for 2 points. In the NCAA this can happen, not in the NFL. > [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > A blocked extra point is a dead ball, is it not? In the NFL, yes. I though, but am not sure, that the NCAA allowed for a one point return on that ball. ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-nfl-rule-and-response-from-a-ref/520759/7 "2009-12-10T20:31:41Z")
> [@whatami](#): > > Actually, it would result in 2 pts. (as long as it wasn’t a blocked kick, in which case it would be one.) You’re saying that the offense giving up a safety after a blocked kick scores 1 for the defense, and without the kick it’s 2? I hadn’t heard of such a distinction, but it’s not something that comes up too often :D. ---
**Author:** ![whatami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/85f322/32.png) [@whatami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whatami)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-nfl-rule-and-response-from-a-ref/520759/8 "2009-12-10T20:48:04Z")
> [@borschevsky](#): > > You’re saying that the offense giving up a safety after a blocked kick scores 1 for the defense, and without the kick it’s 2? I hadn’t heard of such a distinction, but it’s not something that comes up too often :D. Let me see if I can find the NCAA rulebook. I’m not very versed in their rules. ---
**Author:** ![whatami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/85f322/32.png) [@whatami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whatami)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-nfl-rule-and-response-from-a-ref/520759/9 "2009-12-10T20:54:43Z")
> [@whatami](#): > > Let me see if I can find the NCAA rulebook. I’m not very versed in their rules. I found them here, but don’t have time right now to go through them. After thinking about your response, I think you’re right but I’m not sure how it works out. Is the ball dead on a blocked PAT kick or does the defense have an opportunity to recover and try for two. [http://www.ncaapublications.com/Uploads/PDF/Football\_Rules\_5\_2204c0005d-845f-4813-8391-54f15136079d.pdf](http://www.ncaapublications.com/Uploads/PDF/Football_Rules_5_2204c0005d-845f-4813-8391-54f15136079d.pdf) (.pdf warning) I’ll see if I can get through it later. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-nfl-rule-and-response-from-a-ref/520759/10 "2009-12-10T21:13:49Z")
In both pro and college football, a TD on the PAT counts as 2 points, and a FG or safety counts one. In college football, either team can score those points. In pro football, only the offensive team can score. Therefore, in pro football, the only way to score a safety on a PAT is for the offense to score it without the defense gaining possession of the ball. Such plays are extremely, extremely rare and I am almost certain that such a play has never happened. In college football, as noted, the ball remains alive after the defense gains possession, so it’s much easier for the _original_ offensive team to score a safety, and it has happened more than once. It would be possible, but in practice almost inconceivable, for the original defending team to score a safety. Either would be worth one point. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-nfl-rule-and-response-from-a-ref/520759/11 "2009-12-10T21:14:26Z")
I just think it’s cool that Ed Hoculi emailed you back, and with such a detailed answer. That was nice of him, since I cannot imagine answering fan rules questions is part of his job. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-nfl-rule-and-response-from-a-ref/520759/12 "2009-12-10T21:41:06Z")
An e-mail from Ed Hochuli? We’re not worthy! We’re not worthy! ---
**Author:** ![TheBoltEater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@TheBoltEater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheBoltEater)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-nfl-rule-and-response-from-a-ref/520759/13 "2009-12-11T00:57:47Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > I just think it’s cool that Ed Hoculi emailed you back, and with such a detailed answer. That was nice of him, since I cannot imagine answering fan rules questions is part of his job. Oh, somehow I think he was just thrilled to answer a question that didn’t start with, “How do you sleep at night after that Chargers game?!?” ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-nfl-rule-and-response-from-a-ref/520759/14 "2009-12-11T01:06:42Z")
> [@TheBoltEater](#): > > Oh, somehow I think he was just thrilled to answer a question that didn’t start with, “How do you sleep at night after that Chargers game?!?” He’s a lawyer, it shouldn’t be too hard for him. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-nfl-rule-and-response-from-a-ref/520759/15 "2009-12-11T01:14:06Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > I just think it’s cool that Ed Hoculi emailed you back, and with such a detailed answer. That was nice of him, since I cannot imagine answering fan rules questions is part of his job. I imagine Ed having a specially designed keyboard that accommodates his massive biceps so he can respond to emails. ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-nfl-rule-and-response-from-a-ref/520759/16 "2009-12-11T01:40:38Z")
**whatami** , remember it’s probably best to quote portions of others’ work rather than the whole thing. In this case, Hoculi technically has copyright to his words, be they in an email to you or printed elsewhere. thanks, **Ellen Cherry Game Room Moderator** ---
**Author:** ![Cyberhwk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7993a0/32.png) [@Cyberhwk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyberhwk)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-nfl-rule-and-response-from-a-ref/520759/17 "2009-12-11T07:03:23Z")
> [@TheBoltEater](#): > > Oh, somehow I think he was just thrilled to answer a question that didn’t start with, “How do you sleep at night after that Chargers game?!?” Which is really a shame. “Guns” has given so much to the game. They say that inadvertent whistle absolutely tore him up.