# Odd question on manliness **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 11, 2017, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-question-on-manliness/781951 "2017-03-11T19:30:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bad\_News\_Baboon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@Bad\_News\_Baboon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bad_News_Baboon)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-question-on-manliness/781951/21 "2017-03-13T05:30:37Z")
> [@AncientHumanoid](#): > > Lack of sunscreen? > > Heavy smoking? > > Malnutrition? > > I’m thinking of pics of a 30 some odd year old Hank Williams looking like 50/60 or so does today. It that what you are asking? > > . Not just a lack of sunscreen, but personal products in general were harsher. Smoking - so many people smoked then. Most people were married and had children at this age. That will definitely add age to your face! Military service. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-question-on-manliness/781951/22 "2017-03-13T06:24:51Z")
Plus, of course, back in the day adolescent and young men wanted to look like adults. They dressed like adults and - especially in the context of a photograph - sought to carry themselves like adults. Whereas, now, the casual, youthful look is desired and people tend to dress and carry themselves younger rather than older. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-question-on-manliness/781951/23 "2017-03-13T10:43:04Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > Trying to think of an example that people could relate to. George Clooney seemed to develop his manlilook over the years in age appropriate progressions. While Brad Pitt seems to maintain that boyish look no matter how hard he tries to copy Geaorge Clooney. No comment on me n’ **Stranger**? Are you saying that you are trying to describe something else? And that Clooney and Pitt are a modern day example? ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-question-on-manliness/781951/24 "2017-03-13T12:38:40Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > No comment on me n’ **Stranger**? Are you saying that you are trying to describe something else? And that Clooney and Pitt are a modern day example? Yes, I see the mature look today but not as commonly as it seemed to appear years ago. Pitt would be an example of the boyish look while Clooney would be an example of the mature male look. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-question-on-manliness/781951/25 "2017-03-13T13:50:56Z")
Sure, and **Jon Hamm’s Don Draper** has it, too. That retro manly man thing. It’s based on the stuff Stranger and I comment on, but in this day and age, it is a role that guys with a certain look can pull off. Look at Hamm in his goofball roles, where he switches it off, to the extent that a guy that handsome _can_ switch it off. But when he gets his full Draper on, whoa. He’s a walking flashback. **Ben Affleck** has it at times. **Michael Shannon** has it. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-question-on-manliness/781951/26 "2017-03-13T13:57:06Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > Yes, I see the mature look today but not as commonly as it seemed to appear years ago. Pitt would be an example of the boyish look while Clooney would be an example of the mature male look. George Clooney also generally dresses and presents himself in a mature, polished manner. He frequently wears suits or jackets to public events, has a cerain self-deprecating but demonstrable confidence bordering on arrogance about himself and his work, and whether you agree with his politics or not he comes off as well spoken and thoughtful. Brad Pitt frequently looks like a middle aged man trying to regain his frat boy glory years, and often sounds like he’s trying to channel Sean Penn by way of Pee Wee Herman. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-question-on-manliness/781951/27 "2017-03-13T14:02:13Z")
Thinking about what you seem to be after, I will offer this: I would say that this mature-look manly man has always been 1 subset of leading men, but many of the best examples have endured as movie stars. Today, it is less about testosterone, but a more open definition of manliness. After getting through the 70’s, non-manley-men leading men became okay: Dustin Hoffman, Al Pacino, etc. and it has only splintered more from there. Michael Cera is an ironically cool legitimate leading man. Times have changed. Fine by me - clearly there’s room for Hamm’s and Clooney’s alongside Idris Elba, The Rock, and other diverse leads. Still a work in process, but happening. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2017, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-question-on-manliness/781951/28 "2017-03-13T14:29:50Z")
> [@Bad\_News\_Baboon](#): > > Smoking - so many people smoked then. This. It’s well-known that smoking trashes your skin. I’ve watched Deadliest Catch for years; the crab boat crews and captains are almost all smokers. Jake Anderson joined the crew of the Northwestern in 2007. I don’t know if he smoked before that, but he definitely smoked after that, and quickly went from baby-faced to leatherfaced. I imagine working insanely long/hard hours on a crab boat in harsh salt spray didn’t help, either. With smoking and hard manual labor being so much more common decades ago, I expect this was a factor. I wonder if the prevalence of [xenoestrogen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenoestrogen) in the modern environment may also be a factor? These are known to cause a wide array of health issues, and I wonder if the softening of stereotypically masculine facial features might be another effect. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-question-on-manliness/781951/29 "2017-03-14T00:18:23Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > In what way would that change the look of a man’s face? One generation looks well groomed and sophisticated and the other looks like a basement dwelling sack of dirty clothes. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-question-on-manliness/781951/30 "2017-03-14T05:25:07Z")
As others mentioned formal attitudes age you. Here are some photo of German WWII soldiers and they seem quite young because they are smiling and laughing. [http://www.setsubset.com/silly-nazis/](http://www.setsubset.com/silly-nazis/) [http://www.setsubset.com/silly-nazis-2/](http://www.setsubset.com/silly-nazis-2/) Here not so much [https://www.pinterest.com/pin/284289795202967475/](https://www.pinterest.com/pin/284289795202967475/) ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-question-on-manliness/781951/31 "2017-03-14T09:06:04Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > Yes, I see the mature look today but not as commonly as it seemed to appear years ago. Pitt would be an example of the boyish look while Clooney would be an example of the mature male look. I think I get what you’re saying, but disagree about Pitt. Pitt is naturally more of a “pretty boy” than Clooney, who is more “ruggedly handsome”. But when I see Pitt in Fight Club or period films like Legends of the Fall, A River Runs Through It or Inglorius Basterds, I find him “believably rugged” for that era. Same with Robert Redford for that matter. In contrast, Leonardo DeCaprio, always appears “boyish” and “soft” to me. It takes more for me to suspend my disbelief that he grew up in circa 1860s Five Points or survived a bear mauling in the South Dakota wilderness. I believe him playing a 20 something stock broker at age 40. Men these days simply aren’t as rugged as they were in previous decades. Even the goofball Nazi’s in astro’s photo links look more “manly”. Most men in their 20s and 30s today look like the cast of This is The End. Skinny nerds like Jay Baruchel, fatbodies like Seth Rogan, Jonah Hill and Danny McBride, or vaguely effeminate pretty-boys like James Franco. I think it’s for pretty much all the reasons others have mentioned. The constant drinking and smoking weathers them at a younger age. They tend to be leaner and more wiry from hard labor and a lack of junk food. Less sitting around watching TV and surfing the net. They matured earlier, having to deal with the Great Depression, major wars and polio outbreaks. Plus traditional “manliness” is something that has gone out the window in the past few decades. Compare Don Draper to any of the limp-dick male character’s on HBO’s Girls. I was watching the Grammy Awards and all the male artists looked like a bunch of R&B nerds compared to Metallica. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-question-on-manliness/781951/32 "2017-03-14T16:08:02Z")
I Love that in the space of 5 threads, we have … alcohol is bad for you, marijuana is bad for you, promiscuous sex is bad for you, gambling is bad for you… but Oh My, how Smoking makes you So Manly! :rolleyes: I’ve seen people dragging around O2 tanks and portable nebulizers with that sexy Y-tube shoved up their nose. I’m not buying it. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-question-on-manliness/781951/33 "2017-03-14T19:33:52Z")
> [@Count\_Blucher](#): > > I Love that in the space of 5 threads, we have … alcohol is bad for you, marijuana is bad for you, promiscuous sex is bad for you, gambling is bad for you… but Oh My, how Smoking makes you So Manly! :rolleyes: > > I’ve seen people dragging around O2 tanks and portable nebulizers with that sexy Y-tube shoved up their nose. I’m not buying it. I don’t think anyone suggested that tobacco was a good thing. They suggested that it ages a man faster. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-question-on-manliness/781951/34 "2017-03-14T19:49:02Z")
Well it does. Smoking dries the skin. Even when I first went into bars, on a busy night your eyes absolutely stung from smoke in the air. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-question-on-manliness/781951/35 "2017-03-14T19:58:48Z")
OP spoke of an _appearance_ of maturity, I took it as physical aging (since OP was talking about photographs, not something like ability hold down a job or be trustworthy) My answer lumped sun damage and malnutrition in with smoking. NOT EVEN CLOSE to saying it’s a good thing. . ---
**Author:** ![JackieLikesVariety](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackielikesvariety/32/296_2.png) [@JackieLikesVariety](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JackieLikesVariety)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-question-on-manliness/781951/36 "2017-04-21T19:27:11Z")
this thread was well worth finding just for the silly nazi photos 🙂 Machine Elf makes a great point > [@](#): > > I wonder if the prevalence of xenoestrogen in the modern environment may also be a factor? These are known to cause a wide array of health issues, and I wonder if the softening of stereotypically masculine facial features might be another effect. and what about all[the hormones given to animals raised for meat](https://www.organicconsumers.org/scientific/growth-hormones-fed-beef-cattle-damage-human-health)? that has to add up. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-question-on-manliness/781951/37 "2017-04-21T22:07:34Z")
> [@JackieLikesVariety](#): > > and what about all[the hormones given to animals raised for meat](https://www.organicconsumers.org/scientific/growth-hormones-fed-beef-cattle-damage-human-health)? > > that has to add up. :dubious: Maybe. But linking to a website from an organization that promotes raw milk and homeopathy and spreads false information regarding food irradiation and vaccines isn’t going to be found very convincing on this board. While some studies find possibilities of ingested hormones having health risks, hormones liker BGH and IGF have to be injected, not digested, to have the type of effects you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-question-on-manliness/781951/38 "2017-04-21T22:49:30Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > Any theories on this? Am I noticing something that doesn’t really exist? I think I know the look you refer to. It is, IMO, a combination of confidence and competence crossed with esperience. You’ll see it on farmers a lot, and special warfare troops - Folks as know what they know, know how to handle what comes their way, and have some experience demonstrating it. JFTR, you’ll find that same look on women. ---
**Author:** ![ASGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@ASGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-question-on-manliness/781951/39 "2017-04-22T02:48:01Z")
I agree with **magiver** and **up\_the\_junction**. I have drawings and photos of my Dad from his WWII service years. He was 18 years old but looks like he’s been around the block 20 times. Not aged, mind you. Mature. He’s seen a lot of things most of us will never see. A worldliness. Maybe even a sadness. I personally believe life experiences can do that. Not for me, who has never seen that kind of early life. But my Dad, yep. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odd-question-on-manliness/781951.md?page=1)