# Oddly disturbing nursery rhymes **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 28, 2004, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-disturbing-nursery-rhymes/281881 "2004-12-28T03:58:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-disturbing-nursery-rhymes/281881/1 "2004-12-28T03:58:58Z")
Here’s something I found recently in an old book of nursery rhymes: There was a jolly miller Lived by the River Dee He worked and sang from dawn ‘til night No lark so blythe as he! And this the burden of his song Forever used to be: "I care for nobody, no, not I, “Since nobody cares for me!” Seems an innocent bit of fluff until you read it twice. Is this dude “jolly” or sociopathic? Solomon Grundy Born on Monday Christened on Tuesday Married on Wednesday Took ill Thursday Grew worse Friday Died on Saturday Buried on Sunday And that was the end Of Solomon Grundy! – “which is a gloomy story, but remarkably similar to yours or mine.” – George Orwell, “Nonsense Poetry,” _The Tribune,_ 21 December 1945. This is the knife with the handle of horn That killed the cock that crowed in the morn That waked the priest all shaven and shorn That married the groom all tattered and torn Unto the maiden all forlorn That milked the cow That sat on the dog That killed the cat That ate the rat That turned the malt That lay in the house that Jack built. Fuckin’ **grim!** Always find myself wanting to read it out loud in a Vincent Price voice. Are there any nursery rhymes you find disturbing, or scary, or depressing, or not really suited for children? ---
**Author:** ![Abbie\_Carmichael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/49beb7/32.png) [@Abbie\_Carmichael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abbie_Carmichael)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-disturbing-nursery-rhymes/281881/2 "2004-12-28T04:12:17Z")
Well there’s always the “rockabye baby, at least until you fall out of the tree and plummet to the ground” lullaby. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-disturbing-nursery-rhymes/281881/3 "2004-12-28T04:14:19Z")
You are surprised that they are called the Brothers Grimm? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-disturbing-nursery-rhymes/281881/4 "2004-12-28T04:15:42Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > You are surprised that they are called the Brothers Grimm? Good one – but they collected **fairy tales,** not nursery rhymes. And German tales, not English. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-disturbing-nursery-rhymes/281881/5 "2004-12-28T04:18:44Z")
Before someone comes along to claim that Ring Around the Rosey refers to the bubonic plague, I’ll post this link to [Snopes](http://www.snopes.com/language/literary/rosie.htm) that says it’s false. Virtually all nursery rhymes and fairy tales originated before the era of Disney and the modern urge to sanitize the world. People used to have a more direct connection to the world, including unpleasant things like death and disease, and didn’t feel it necessary to shield children from them. I mean, look at all the horrible things that happen in some of the original Grimm and Andersen fairy tales. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-disturbing-nursery-rhymes/281881/6 "2004-12-28T04:29:15Z")
Oranges and lemons Say the bells of St Clements You owe me five farthings Say the bells of St Martins When will you pay me? Say the bells of Old Bailey When I grow rich Say the bells of Shoreditch When will that be? Say the bells of Stepney I’m sure I don’t know Says the great bell at Bow \*\*Here comes a candle to light you to bed Here comes a chopper to chop off your head Chop chop chop chop the last man’s head!\*\* ---
**Author:** ![dotchan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@dotchan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dotchan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-disturbing-nursery-rhymes/281881/7 "2004-12-28T04:56:41Z")
Nursery rhymes are among the disturbing songs discussed in [an earlier thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=244358) ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-disturbing-nursery-rhymes/281881/8 "2004-12-28T06:27:08Z")
> [@commasense](#): > > Virtually all nursery rhymes and fairy tales originated before the era of Disney and the modern urge to sanitize the world. People used to have a more direct connection to the world, including unpleasant things like death and disease, and didn’t feel it necessary to shield children from them. However, during the era of Victorian prudery, many rhymes were re-written to make them safe for chi9ldren. This often made them totally nonsensical. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-disturbing-nursery-rhymes/281881/9 "2004-12-28T06:48:05Z")
Fingers and Toes: _Every lady in this land Has twenty nails, upon each hand Five, and twenty on hands and feet: All this is true, without deceit._ Three Wise Men of Gotham: _Three wise men of Gotham Went to sea in a bowl; If the bowl had been stronger My song would be longer._ A verse from The Carrion Crow: _The tailor he shot, and missed his mark, Fol de riddle, lol de riddle, hi ding do! And shot his own sow quite through the heart; Sing heigh-ho, the carrion crow, Fol de riddle, lol de riddle, hi ding do!_ A Man in Our Town: _There was a man in our town, And he was wondrous wise, He jumped into a bramble bush, And scratched out both his eyes; But when he saw his eyes were out, With all his might and main, He jumped into another bush, And scratched 'em in again._ Jerry Hall: _Jerry Hall, he was so small, A rat could eat him, hat and all._ Cry, Baby, Cry. _Cry, baby, cry, Put your finger in your eye, And tell your mother it wasn’t I._ And of course, Who Killed Cock Robin? and the rest. The venerable Mother Goose is pretty grim when she’s herself. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-disturbing-nursery-rhymes/281881/10 "2004-12-28T06:49:11Z")
This one has six verses, all with the same chorus: Oh, what have you got for dinner, Mrs Bond? There’s beef in the larder, and ducks in the pond; Dilly, dilly, dilly, dilly, come to be killed, For you must be stuffed and my customers filled! ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-disturbing-nursery-rhymes/281881/11 "2004-12-28T09:20:23Z")
> [@](#): > > There was a jolly miller > Lived by the River Dee > He worked and sang from dawn 'til night > No lark so blythe as he! > And this the burden of his song > Forever used to be: > "I care for nobody, no, not I, > “Since nobody cares for me!” Medieval European Millers usually had a monopoly on grinding grain given them by the local lord. Although their rates were often also set by the lord (usually as a portion of the flour produced), locals had the choice of paying up or hand grinding their grain. Millers weren’t nobles, but they were often significantly wealthier than others of their class, which caused a bit of animosity, as is displayed in the verse above. Not that I have a cite linking the verse to millers’ monopolies. About when did the verse originate? Anyone know? ---
**Author:** ![Marlitharn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/779978/32.png) [@Marlitharn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marlitharn)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-disturbing-nursery-rhymes/281881/12 "2004-12-28T09:58:01Z")
_Wee Willy Winkie runs through the town Upstairs, downstairs, in his nightgown. Peeping in the windows, crying through the locks, “Are the children all in bed? For now it’s eight o’clock.”_ Leaving aside the little peeping Tom’s name (although judging from my anthology of Victorian erotica, “willy” was a euphemism for the penis even back in those innocent times, and probably a lot earlier; I have no idea how far back “winkie” goes), the image of some guy racing around town in a nightgown looking in windows and making demands through the keyhole has always struck me as Very Vaguely Creepy. ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-disturbing-nursery-rhymes/281881/13 "2004-12-28T10:00:13Z")
Milk, Milk Lemonade 'Round the corner fudge is made Stick your finger up the hole Out comes a Tootsie Roll Baby, Baby Stick your head in gravy Wash it off with bubblegum Send it to the Navy Girls go to Jupiter to get more stupider Boys go to Mars to get candy bars Me Chinese Me play joke Me put pee pee in your Coke! ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-disturbing-nursery-rhymes/281881/14 "2004-12-28T14:07:39Z")
You should read William Blake’s poetry. Ja, he’s not known for nursery rhymes now, but in the 16th century and onwards his poetry was widely read to children. Parents _thought_ they were children’s rhymes, but they’re really pretty stunning and damning depictions of social injustice. It’s chilling. ---
**Author:** ![Ichbin\_Dubist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/51bf81/32.png) [@Ichbin\_Dubist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ichbin_Dubist)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-disturbing-nursery-rhymes/281881/15 "2004-12-28T14:52:11Z")
Goosey, goosey, gander, Whither dost thou wander? Upstairs and downstairs And in my lady’s chamber. There I met an old man Who wouldn’t say his prayers; I took him by the left leg, And threw him down the stairs. …and the moral of the story, children, is always say your prayers or a psychopathic farm animal will toss you down a flight of stairs and break your neck. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-disturbing-nursery-rhymes/281881/16 "2004-12-28T15:21:05Z")
> [@](#): > > **Peter, Peter, pumpkin eater, > Had a wife and couldn’t keep her. > He put her in a pumpkin shell > And there he kept her, very well.** Another squash-related case of domestic abuse! ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-disturbing-nursery-rhymes/281881/17 "2004-12-28T16:14:28Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Fuckin’ **grim!** Always find myself wanting to read it out loud in a Vincent Price voice. They’re much funnier when read as Peter Lorre. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-disturbing-nursery-rhymes/281881/18 "2004-12-28T16:28:22Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > Not that I have a cite linking the verse to millers’ monopolies. About when did the verse originate? Anyone know? No cite needed. Anyone who reads European Medieval Lit knows the Miller Stereotype. Wealthy, greedy, lecherous, brutal. Usually the cuckold, too. Sorta a god way for everyman to get even with the bastid. ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-disturbing-nursery-rhymes/281881/19 "2004-12-28T21:36:37Z")
> [@Marlitharn](#): > > \*Wee Willy Winkie runs through the town > Upstairs, downstairs, in his nightgown…has always struck me as Very Vaguely Creepy. I _think_ he is perhaps meant to be more of a “sandman” sort of thing - I mean, goingn around to ensure that the children were all properly safely asleep etc. The mother of the unsleeping child seems quite happy to greet WWW, mentioning that the cat and the dog are all happily snoozy, but here’s a little boy that won’t go to sleep yet. [http://www.rampantscotland.com/poetry/blpoems\_winkie.htm](http://www.rampantscotland.com/poetry/blpoems_winkie.htm) And now, dammit, I can’t recall which nursery rhymes I always think of as slightly sinister, though, goodness know, many of them are! ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2004, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-disturbing-nursery-rhymes/281881/20 "2004-12-28T21:42:12Z")
“Jack and Jill”, I suppose, sounds like a tale of a pretty Bad Day. Jack and Jill went up the hill To fetch a pail of water; Jack fell down and broke his crown,. And Jill came tumbling after. Up got Jack and home did he trot, As fast as he could caper; Went to bed and bound his head, With vinegar and brown paper. When Jill came in how she did grin To see Jack’s paper plaster; Mother vexed, did whip her next; For causing Jack’s disaster Hmm, why does Jill get blamed, eh? :dubious: [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-disturbing-nursery-rhymes/281881.md?page=2)