# Oddly proud to be southern **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 17, 2004, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-proud-to-be-southern/275199 "2004-11-17T04:32:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-proud-to-be-southern/275199/41 "2004-11-17T18:00:52Z")
> [@Boyo Jim](#): > > Was I reading your OP right in that not a single person faced up to her to call bullshit, that the sum total of responses was some facial contortions and polite excuses to leave? This makes you proud? > > Well, ok. She knew instantly she’d pissed everybody off. What purpose would a more fiery confrontation have served? It wouldn’t have changed her mind and would have resulted in an argument that would have disrupted the play we were getting ready to walk onstage for. The point was made. Southerners generally could teach the feudal Japanese and the bedouin lessons in ritualized courtesy. To have done more than express obvious disapproval and leave would have violated what I (a lifelong and umpteenth generation southerner proudly related to myself on both sides) refer to as the _Dixie Bushido_. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-proud-to-be-southern/275199/42 "2004-11-17T18:14:32Z")
> [@plnnr](#): > > I always find it odd that people point out what a vile, evil, disgusting, hateful man Robert E. Lee was. Evidently he was good enough to be first offered command of the Union army **while still owning slaves**. Actually, Lee _never_ owned a slave and his abolitionist views sometimes got him into trouble. > [@Robert E. Lee](#): > > “There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil.” His wife and sons _did_ own slaves (some of whom had once served George Washington\* [Mrs. Lee having inherited the property of her father, Martha Washington’s grandson]), but Lee, whose extremely aristocratic father died penniless and deeply in debt, inherited none and never purchased one. Ulysses S. Grant, however, received two slaves as a wedding gift from his father-in-law and later purchased two more. He was far from the only slaveowning Union general. (As a matter of fact Major Robert Anderson, commander of the Ft. Sumter garrison and as such the first Union commander in a Civil War battle, was a slaveowner.) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-proud-to-be-southern/275199/43 "2004-11-17T18:14:51Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Non Southern Democrats have been shut out in Dixie since 1968 and Humphrey’s lone carry of Texas. They have averaged just 4.17 EV per election in the Confederacy if you include 1968, 0.00 EV per election if you do not. > > Southern Democrats have averaged 58.50 EV per election since 1968. > > The facts don’t lie. A lot of Southerners just will not vote for a Yankee. Damn straight! That’s why we voted fer those good Southern boys Nixon, Ford, Reagan, and Dole. Of course, by your logic and your numbers: 1968: Humphrey carries half of New England, with his running mate being from Maine. 1972: McGovern only carries Masschussets, which his running mate is from. (14/34) 1984: Mondale loses all of New England. (0/36) 1988: Dukakis carries less than half of New England, despite being governor of Masschussets. (17/36) Obviously, New England don’t like them Yankees much, either. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-proud-to-be-southern/275199/44 "2004-11-17T18:23:51Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I just can’t see why anyone would be proud to be southern. Frankly **Bob** , I just can’t see why anyone would be proud to embrace such a bigoted opinion. To be honest, I’d expected better of you. That’ll pass. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-proud-to-be-southern/275199/45 "2004-11-17T18:29:21Z")
_George Washington also hated slavery and so it as a systemic evil, so much so that he ordered all of his slaves freed upon his death or the death of his wife, whichever should come the latter. In his will he requested that his wife free her slaves (inherited from her first husband and from her father_\* and thus distinct from Washington’s slaves) as well, but (probably at the urging of her grandchildren/heirs), she did not. Washington bequeathed land, tools and pensions to his manumitted slaves in his will as well. \*\*An odd similarity twixt the first and third First Ladies (if Martha Jefferson can be called a First Lady [having died before her husband was elected]): both were Virginia born heiresses, both were wealthy widows with two children, and both brought as part of their dowry slaves who were half-siblings. In Martha Jefferson’s case one of the half-siblings (Sally Hemings) became the concubine of her husband many years later, while in Martha Washington’s case a half-sister became the concubine of her son [the slave’s half-nephew]). I’ve compared Southern history to a really good dish of liver, onions and gravy: spicy, delicious, fattening and dripping in blood. However, there really is a “New South” as evidenced by the attitudes of college kids. Politically we’re fucked up, _but_ it is not the lower class Pentecostals who supported Bush nearly as much as the middle and upper classes- the lower classes were as likely to be pro-Kerry, and as for the gay marriage initiatives- they were voted down in every state where they were on the ballot, not just the south. Things often ignored when making generalizations about the South: —The worst race riots in U.S. history were as apt to occur outside the south as inside (Tulsa [mentioned previously], L.A. (Watts riots, the Rodney King riots), Omaha, etc. —The KKK had a much more powerful political powerbase in the Midwest than it ever had in the South —Justice Hugo Black, one of the most liberal minds on the SCotUS during the Civil Rights era, was an Alabamian (and a former Klan member) —The same court orders that integrated schools in the south were also used to integrate schools in the north and west (including in Hyannisport MA) at the same time Racism, stupidity, demagoguery, xenophobia and other cultural cancers have never been any more exclusively southern than they are exclusively American. I’m convinced that if you moved into the swamps of Louisiana, the glacier villages above the Canadian shield, New York City or Baja California you’re going to find some very intelligent and open minded people who read and think and then a majority who are, to quote Ford Madox Ford, primarily stuff to fill graves. I definitely entertain notions of moving to a blue state at some point, but it has nothing to do with shame of southerners. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-proud-to-be-southern/275199/46 "2004-11-17T19:08:28Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > She knew instantly she’d pissed everybody off…The point was made. Like you said, she wasn’t born Down South but she’d been there long enough to understand. > [@](#): > > Southerners generally could teach the feudal Japanese and the bedouin lessons in ritualized courtesy. To have done more than express obvious disapproval and leave would have violated what I (a lifelong and umpteenth generation southerner proudly related to myself on both sides) refer to as the _Dixie Bushido_. And that is MY favorite part of the South. Can you believe I used to follow that code? Yeah, I know, it didn’t really take, did it? _Dixie Bushido_ is a great name for it. However, I don’t want to belabor the obvious but Lee, Washington, Jefferson, etc were not Southerners. They were Virginians. If you do not know the difference we could have a Virginian explain it to you, if he deigns to. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-proud-to-be-southern/275199/47 "2004-11-17T19:20:28Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Okay, you’re one of those humorless liberals. > > Jesus, you Southerners are right. There really CAN’T be a pleasant discussion of why and how much Northerners and Southerners dislike each other without it being Godwinized by slavery. Funny, isn’t it, that we still can’t laugh about slavery? Kind of like how Germans have trouble laughing about Treblinka. Godwinizing? Nope. **Slavery is the South’s Holocaust**. It’s something we’ve got to come to terms with, as one of history’s worst atrocities. And whether you southern ancestors were slavers, slaves, or bystanders, it cuts a deep scar into your psyche. Mine were slavers. Mine joined the Klan soon after its founding. Forgive me if I don’t crack jokes about slavery. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![don\_nardo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@don\_nardo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_nardo)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-proud-to-be-southern/275199/48 "2004-11-17T19:28:57Z")
Here y’all go: [http://www.drivebytruckers.com/lyrics\_sro.html#southernthing](http://www.drivebytruckers.com/lyrics_sro.html#southernthing) ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-proud-to-be-southern/275199/49 "2004-11-17T19:38:25Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Funny, isn’t it, that we still can’t laugh about slavery? Kind of like how Germans have trouble laughing about Treblinka. > > Godwinizing? Nope. **Slavery is the South’s Holocaust**. It’s something we’ve got to come to terms with, as one of history’s worst atrocities. And whether you southern ancestors were slavers, slaves, or bystanders, it cuts a deep scar into your psyche. > > Mine were slavers. Mine joined the Klan soon after its founding. Forgive me if I don’t crack jokes about slavery. > > Daniel You _are_ familiar that slavery was practiced in the north, west and midwest as well aren’t you? (One of the bloodiest slave uprisings in American history occurred on Manhattan in the 18th century.) Or that there were very ardent southern abolitionists who risked their lives as members of the Underground Railroad (and without whom it would have been nearly impossible for slaves to escape)? Further the reason slavery ended in other parts of the nation was _NOT_ because of humanitarian reasons but because massive immigration from Germany, Ireland and other nations supplied a much cheaper labor force (low wages v. high initial capital outlay) and that in many ways the immigrant slums of the north were worse than the slave quarters of the Mississippi delta, often with a lower life expectancy. Sexual abuse of slaves by masters was matched by incredible rates of prostitution in most urban areas- as many as 1/5 of northern men are estimated to have suffered from STDs before the civil war. If you have to condemn the south for part of its history I’d go with the Jim Crow laws- they were generally more unique and in many ways more demeaning. But bear in mind that they are also over, and that as an American of any region if you must insist on holding all people today accountable for their regions history then you must yourself stand accused of the murder of millions of native Americans, the theft of their lands, the theft of some of the world’s richest oil fields from Mexico (a nation in dire need of the revenues they would produce), the interment of the Japanese during WW2, etc etc etc., or you could follow the more sane route of acknowledging these injustices happened and committing yourself to never assist in such actions in the future while not holding others accountable for everything that happened since the Big Bang just because of what zip code the gametes that formed them happened to unite in. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-proud-to-be-southern/275199/50 "2004-11-17T19:49:02Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > You _are_ familiar that slavery was practiced in the north, west and midwest as well aren’t you? Yes, just as I’m familiar that the Holocaust, though most prevalent in Germany, extended beyond that country’s borders. > [@](#): > > Or that there were very ardent southern abolitionists who risked their lives as members of the Underground Railroad (and without whom it would have been nearly impossible for slaves to escape)? Yes, and I recognize that there was a German Resistance. > [@](#): > > Further the reason slavery ended in other parts of the nation was _NOT_ because of humanitarian reasons but because massive immigration from Germany, Ireland and other nations supplied a much cheaper labor force (low wages v. high initial capital outlay) and that in many ways the immigrant slums of the north were worse than the slave quarters of the Mississippi delta, often with a lower life expectancy. I dispute the idea that slavery was no worse than the immigrant slums of the north, and believe that Frederick Douglas would’ve had my back on this one. The immigrant slums were appalling; the institution of Southern slavery was just about unmatched in human history in its degradation of humanity. > [@](#): > > If you have to condemn the south for part of its history I’d go with the Jim Crow laws- they were generally more unique and in many ways more demeaning. I don’t “have to” condemn the south for any part of its history, but it just so happens the South has a horrific history in this respect. While slavery existed in other regions of the world and of the country, it was nowhere as concentrated, as populous, as central to the culture, and as brutal as it was in the Southern US. (places like Haiti had even worse slave cultures, but were much smaller in scale). It’s absurd to imply that I’m just looking for something to condemn the South for. I love th South, but I’m not going to shy away from recognizing the enormity of this event from our past. > [@](#): > > But bear in mind that they are also over, and that as an American of any region if you must insist on holding all people today accountable for their regions history Hold on, there, hoss. Do you really think that I’m holding the great-grandchildren of slaves accountable for slavery? Or were you just kinda forgetting that the South contains black people, too, and thought I was only talking about white people? I’m not holding Southerners **accountable** for our history. I’m saying that the history cuts a deep scar into our psyche, that it’s something we have to face and come to terms with. Denying it, trivializing it, saying, “But they did bad stuff too!” doesn’t work. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-proud-to-be-southern/275199/51 "2004-11-17T19:54:23Z")
It’s also important to realize that the South, or at least my corner of it, is a hotbed of Yankee immigration. I’m originally from California, but grew up in Atlanta and Tampa. Atlanta was a sleepy little city of roughly 1 million, including the greater metro area, when I first moved there in 1972. Now, 30 some odd years later, it is probably about 4-5 times that size, depending on where you draw the boundaries (some would consider Chattanooga a bedroom community. Why has it exploded in terms of population (and things to do)? I’d say the biggest impetus is that it is a vivacious, black city. Young black professionals from all over the country have moved there because they feel _comfortable_ there, something they can’t always say in some more northerly places. Of course the traffic there is now a freakin’ mess. Likewise the South as a whole has grown while many places in the north have remained stagnant. I’m not saying it’s perfect, but you can’t just look at the world in terms of black and white, right and wrong. And expect to be surprised if you do. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-proud-to-be-southern/275199/52 "2004-11-17T20:07:37Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Funny, isn’t it, that we still can’t laugh about slavery? Well, maybe YOU can’t. > [@](#): > > Mine were slavers. Mine joined the Klan soon after its founding. And most of mine weren’t even in this country yet and were so poor and remote that they probably didn’t benefit from slavery in any way. So what? It was 140 years ago. As a cradle Catholic I feel embarassed by the Spanish Inquisition and its repercussions that continue to this day but that doesn’t mean I can’t laugh at Monty Python. If you had memorized everything I’ve posted on this board (No? Me neither.) you’d know that I am a deeply commited Yankee who never entirely finished “fighting” the Civil War and who has no plans to stop until the last Confederate Apologist stops claiming the war wasn’t about slavery. (It gets almost funny to see **tomndebb** , the very soul of patience, bang his head in frustration at the circular arguments that crop up around that. “It was a war over slavery.” “No, it was a war for states’ rights.” “But the states’ right in question was the ability to hold slaves.” “No, it was about tariffs.” “The Articles of Secession of South Carolina don’t mention tariffs, just slavery. They seceded so they could hold slaves.” “No, it was a war for states’ rights.”) On the other hand, I also grew up considering myself to be a Virginian by adoption, if not birth, so I know the good as well as the bad of the South. Well, Virginia, at least. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-proud-to-be-southern/275199/53 "2004-11-17T20:34:50Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Well, maybe YOU can’t. And most of mine weren’t even in this country yet and were so poor and remote that they probably didn’t benefit from slavery in any way. So what? It was 140 years ago. As a cradle Catholic I feel embarassed by the Spanish Inquisition and its repercussions that continue to this day but that doesn’t mean I can’t laugh at Monty Python. Sure, and I can laugh at John Cleese in _Fawlty Towers_ when he goes goose-stepping around the German tourists, but only because his behavior is so appallingly inappropriate. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![fruitbat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/58f4c7/32.png) [@fruitbat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fruitbat)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-proud-to-be-southern/275199/54 "2004-11-17T20:58:04Z")
I was born and raised in Virginia and I don’t self-identify as a Southerner, but I don’t fault anyone who does and takes pride in it. There is, however, a strain running through this thread that devalues racial divides in the South, past and present. I hardly think slavery is something Southerners still need to apologize for. I do think that the elections and prominence of Jesse Helms, Trent Lott, George Wallace and Strom Thurmond say something about work left to be done in the area of race relations. It strains credibility to suggest that these candidates positions on race had little to do with their popularity in the South. ---
**Author:** ![plnnr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-proud-to-be-southern/275199/55 "2004-11-17T21:27:11Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Actually, Lee _never_ owned a slave and his abolitionist views sometimes got him into trouble. > > His wife and sons _did_ own slaves (some of whom had once served George Washington\* [Mrs. Lee having inherited the property of her father, Martha Washington’s grandson]), but Lee, whose extremely aristocratic father died penniless and deeply in debt, inherited none and never purchased one. > > Ulysses S. Grant, however, received two slaves as a wedding gift from his father-in-law and later purchased two more. He was far from the only slaveowning Union general. (As a matter of fact Major Robert Anderson, commander of the Ft. Sumter garrison and as such the first Union commander in a Civil War battle, was a slaveowner.) Thanks for the follow-up. I know that they weren’t his per se (just as Martha Washington owned dower slaves separate and apart from Washington himself), but given the times, they (the slaves) I suspect they were more under his control than hers. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-proud-to-be-southern/275199/56 "2004-11-17T22:03:13Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > She knew instantly she’d pissed everybody off. What purpose would a more fiery confrontation have served? It wouldn’t have changed her mind and would have resulted in an argument that would have disrupted the play we were getting ready to walk onstage for. The point was made. > > Southerners generally could teach the feudal Japanese and the bedouin lessons in ritualized courtesy. To have done more than express obvious disapproval and leave would have violated what I (a lifelong and umpteenth generation southerner proudly related to myself on both sides) refer to as the _Dixie Bushido_. Someone should have looked at her pitifully, and said, “Well, bless your heart.” ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-proud-to-be-southern/275199/57 "2004-11-17T22:11:48Z")
On the slave thing, Daniel is right. However, the North has some soul searching to do as well — most southerners bought their slaves from New England slave merchants. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-proud-to-be-southern/275199/58 "2004-11-17T22:13:51Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > However, the North has some soul searching to do as well — most southerners bought their slaves from New England slave merchants. I agree entirely. While it’s scarred the South in unique ways–again, similar to how the Third Reich scarred Germany–that’s not to trivialize what happened elsewhere, or the involvement of the North in the slave trade. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-proud-to-be-southern/275199/59 "2004-11-17T22:32:26Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Someone should have looked at her pitifully, and said, “Well, bless your heart.” That is probably the coldest thing I’ve heard you say. And to think some people don’t believe you’re Southern! ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2004, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-proud-to-be-southern/275199/60 "2004-11-17T22:43:59Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > On the slave thing, Daniel is right. However, the North has some soul searching to do as well — most southerners bought their slaves from New England slave merchants. Or put more musically, “you mustn’t think our northern friends merely see our black slaves as figures in a ledger… NO SIR!.. they see them as figures on the blocks!” (Never miss a chance to go to the bathroom, have sex, be on television, or quote from _1776_ [or from a song sung by an actor playing a direct ancestor of Goldie Hawn & Kate Hudson in general].) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-proud-to-be-southern/275199.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oddly-proud-to-be-southern/275199.md?page=4)