# Odonnell beats Castle in Delaware **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 15, 2010, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odonnell-beats-castle-in-delaware/553798 "2010-09-15T02:21:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odonnell-beats-castle-in-delaware/553798/242 "2010-10-19T16:23:21Z")
> [@](#): > > “Where in the Constitution is the separation of church and state?” O’Donnell asked him. See, clearly she’s displaying her incisive analysis of First Amendment law here, by pointing out that while the Constitution does bar Congress from making laws respecting the establishment of religion, it does not mandate an exclusion of religion from the public sphere, and that “separation of church and state” is a phrase that does not appear in the Constitution. She’s obviously well aware that the Constitution bars Congress from making laws respecting the establishment of religion. > [@](#): > > When Coons responded that the First Amendment bars Congress from making laws respecting the establishment of religion, O’Donnell asked: “You’re telling me that’s in the First Amendment?” Or… uh… maybe not. Sheesh. What an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odonnell-beats-castle-in-delaware/553798/243 "2010-10-19T16:27:08Z")
I think it would be fantastic for the GOP to take back the Senate. I think the country needs this. But if I were a Delaware resident, and the GOP and 49 seats and this was the last one on the line, I would vote for Coons. Even if I knew I somehow had the deciding vote, I would vote for Coons. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odonnell-beats-castle-in-delaware/553798/244 "2010-10-19T18:08:10Z")
> [@conway](#): > > [Christine - suprised to find separation of church and state in the First Amendment.](http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gZ1QQxkvUw15IjhGIveoszz67aIA?docId=612ea91debdb4492bfb5af83baa68cc0) [It’s even better in video.](http://www.dailykos.com/tv/w/002765/) I find the howls of incredulous laughter from the audience to be quite encouraging. I also applaud the restraint of Mr Coons, because I think I would not have been able to take his high road when presented with such arrant ignorance and would have immediately begun channeling Dan Aykroyd’s usual response to Jane Curtin. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odonnell-beats-castle-in-delaware/553798/245 "2010-10-19T18:23:15Z")
some one needs to take a trip just a wee bit north and perhaps visit the constitution centre. when you state that you will make all your decisions as senator according to the constitution, it would help to know what is in the constitution. they give you a copy of it as well as a nifty wrist band when you visit, perhaps you could go to the gift shop and get a nifty copy in a frame. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odonnell-beats-castle-in-delaware/553798/246 "2010-10-19T18:34:40Z")
> [@rocking\_chair](#): > > when you state that you will make all your decisions as senator according to the constitution, it would help to know what is in the constitution. Is it your belief that all congressional candidates should be constitutional scholars? There’s plenty of time to learn about all that once you’ve been elected. (And don’t laugh. There’s no way for a presidential candidate to know everything he’ll need to learn about the Constitution and other laws once he’s in office either, and his is clearly a much bigger and more important job.) ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odonnell-beats-castle-in-delaware/553798/247 "2010-10-19T18:43:35Z")
perhaps just those who stress that the constitution guides their judgement, like ms o’donnell. she has said that the consitution will guide her votes in senate, not her religion. it now seems that she may not have read it. she not only had trouble with the first amendment but others as well. if she wants to rely on the constitution perhaps she should carry a copy of it like mr. kucinich. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odonnell-beats-castle-in-delaware/553798/248 "2010-10-19T18:45:33Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Is it your belief that all congressional candidates should be constitutional scholars? I personally believe that all congressional candidates should have at least the passing familiarity with the Constitution one would expect from a typical ninth-grader. If that seems overly strict, well, the **Turnip** is a harsh mistress. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odonnell-beats-castle-in-delaware/553798/249 "2010-10-19T18:47:35Z")
If someone were to tell you they were going to base their decision making according to, for example, Sun Tzu’s The Art of War, then when you asked them what that book said, they were unable to tell you, wouldn’t you find their decision making process a little suspect? ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odonnell-beats-castle-in-delaware/553798/250 "2010-10-19T18:55:12Z")
exactly, raygun99! i don’t think that the turnip is a harsh mistress. just a correct and highly logical one. ms o’donnell every time i see or hear her has only cemented the theory that she is a dabbler. she hasn’t found her niche or place in life yet and goes from thing to thing, idea to idea. she also seems to rely on what she is told and doesn’t seem to investigate things on her own. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odonnell-beats-castle-in-delaware/553798/251 "2010-10-19T19:02:16Z")
I can understand not remembering if it was the 20th or 21st amendment which ended Prohibition. But not knowing which amendment is the separation of church and state? That’s inexcusable for someone claiming to be politically active. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odonnell-beats-castle-in-delaware/553798/252 "2010-10-19T19:11:45Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > If someone were to tell you they were going to base their decision making according to, for example, Sun Tzu’s The Art of War, then when you asked them what that book said, they were unable to tell you, wouldn’t you find their decision making process a little suspect? I’d expect that they’d have a general idea of similar things they want to accomplish by using Sun Tzu’s The Art of War, but I wouldn’t expect that they’d know the book chapter and verse. And I’d wager that a great many of our sitting politicians are effectually as ignorant of the Constitution overall as O’Donnell is, but becoming more well-versed in areas of it as is needed as they go along. Still, I’ll admit that while I don’t necessarily think a would-be office holder should be exceptionally knowledgable about the Constitution and everything in it, I will admit that O’Donnell should have just accepted that the question was accurate as asked and responded accordingly. Again, I’m not really a proponent of O’Donnell in particular, though I would like to see as many Republicans in office as possible if for no other reason than to keep Democrats from taking us further down roads I don’t think we ought to go. But do think that if she’s going to be condemned it should be for legitimate reasons, and I think that she’s sometimes held to unreasonable standards around here, standards that wouldn’t be raised either by the press or by Dopers if the candidate were a Democrat. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odonnell-beats-castle-in-delaware/553798/253 "2010-10-19T19:36:26Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I’d expect that they’d have a general idea of similar things they want to accomplish by using Sun Tzu’s The Art of War, but I wouldn’t expect that they’d know the book chapter and verse. How about the first page? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odonnell-beats-castle-in-delaware/553798/254 "2010-10-19T19:40:07Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I can understand not remembering if it was the 20th or 21st amendment which ended Prohibition. But not knowing which amendment is the separation of church and state? That’s inexcusable for someone claiming to be politically active. Even more to the point: I was semi-joking above, but when I first saw the thread, I thought it was going to be O’Donnell saying (correctly) that “separation of church and state” is not a phrase from the Constitution. She would have then gone on to plausibly argue that the current line of decisions (Lemon and its progeny) are incorrectly decided, creating too much hostility between church and state. She would have pointed out that the Constitution merely commands that “Congress shall make no law…” and that extending this to forbidding prayer before a football game is a stretch. So I had some sympathy all packed up and ready to go. And your post, above, plays into that same scenario… you, too, say “separation of church and state.” That’s common shorthand, but NOT what the Constitution says. But then O’Donnell goes on to ruin that concept, because her opponent correctly quotes the Constitution as saying “Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion…” And she responds to THIS by denying it’s in the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odonnell-beats-castle-in-delaware/553798/255 "2010-10-19T19:41:16Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > … though I would like to see as many Republicans in office as possible if for no other reason than to keep Democrats from taking us further down roads I don’t think we ought to go. Me, too. But my God, man – there are limits. ---
**Author:** ![DxZero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DxZero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DxZero)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odonnell-beats-castle-in-delaware/553798/256 "2010-10-19T19:49:26Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I can understand not remembering if it was the 20th or 21st amendment which ended Prohibition. But not knowing which amendment is the separation of church and state? That’s inexcusable for someone claiming to be politically active. Its worse than that. She didn’t even know there was an amendment dealing with the separation of church and state. Thats much worse than not knowing if it was the 1st or 2nd or whatever amendment. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odonnell-beats-castle-in-delaware/553798/257 "2010-10-19T20:02:25Z")
> [@DxZero](#): > > Its worse than that. She didn’t even know there was an amendment dealing with the separation of church and state. Thats much worse than not knowing if it was the 1st or 2nd or whatever amendment. It’s even worse than **that.** There has been a RW meme circulating for years now that the 1st Amendment does **not** separate church from state, or that the amendment is intended only to protect church from state and not the reverse, or something like that. See [here.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_States#Interpretive_controversies) O’Donnell appears to have imbibed that meme without realizing that it refers to construction of an actual part of the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odonnell-beats-castle-in-delaware/553798/258 "2010-10-19T20:08:42Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Again, I’m not really a proponent of O’Donnell in particular, though I would like to see as many Republicans in office as possible if for no other reason than to keep Democrats from taking us further down roads I don’t think we ought to go. But do think that if she’s going to be condemned it should be for legitimate reasons, and I think that she’s sometimes held to unreasonable standards around here, standards that wouldn’t be raised either by the press or by Dopers if the candidate were a Democrat. You’ve shown a keen interest recently in protecting her from these hypothetical unfair attacks, without (so far to my knowledge) explaining why any of them is unfair, or why she is worthy of such chivalry. Is it a crush? Come on, you can be honest. A little sweet on the ditzy chick? That I can understand. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odonnell-beats-castle-in-delaware/553798/259 "2010-10-19T20:14:11Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > . . . and I think that she’s sometimes held to unreasonable standards around here, standards that wouldn’t be raised either by the press or by Dopers if the candidate were a Democrat. :dubious: Not even you believe that. ---
**Author:** ![conway](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ec9cab/32.png) [@conway](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/conway)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odonnell-beats-castle-in-delaware/553798/260 "2010-10-19T20:25:46Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > …and I think that she’s sometimes held to unreasonable standards around here, standards that wouldn’t be raised either by the press or by Dopers if the candidate were a Democrat. Then raise them for Democrats…I’m sure there are plenty who are doing stupid things. Maybe not as hilarious though. Here, I’ll help you out: [Laura Richardson (D-Long Beach) doesn’t know how to make a mortgage payment.](http://capitolweekly.net/article.php?_c=z7qqzeurnytwim&xid=z7nk12uao81r2p&done=.z7qr19sw54wx1k) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odonnell-beats-castle-in-delaware/553798/261 "2010-10-19T20:31:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Me, too. But my God, man – there are limits. I’d like to present to you this laurel, and hardy handshake. I agree with you about the point she was trying to make, but if she is that ignorant of the _meaning_ of that argument and the text of the Constitution, she shouldn’t be in politics. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odonnell-beats-castle-in-delaware/553798.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odonnell-beats-castle-in-delaware/553798.md?page=14)