# Odyssey finds a famous wreck, who does it belong to? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 1, 2009, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odyssey-finds-a-famous-wreck-who-does-it-belong-to/483989 "2009-02-01T16:44:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odyssey-finds-a-famous-wreck-who-does-it-belong-to/483989/61 "2009-02-03T00:44:39Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > Are there not privately funded museums who employ professional archeologists? Surely they have the right to conduct excavations in international waters just as much as federally funded ones. They’re not allowed to keep or sell the artifacts. Those are no-profit enterprises, funded philanthropically. The “treasure” still belongs to the country it’s recovered in. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odyssey-finds-a-famous-wreck-who-does-it-belong-to/483989/62 "2009-02-03T01:14:27Z")
You might start by looking at the International Convention on Salvage, 1989. And other such treaties. Generally under maritime law if a private entity needs something salvage they enter into a pre-arranged contract. The salvors are then either compensated with a direct fee or they are paid some portion of the salvaged item(s) worth. In situations where salvage is performed on a vessel in distress or in a situation where there would not be a pre-arranged agreement there are general principles as to how much compensation the salvor is owned. Generally if they risk life and limb to offload expensive equipment and machinery off a ship in peril they are entitled to much higher reward then someone who assists in a situation in which there is no peril. It’s generally accepted law that salvors do have rights to some compensation. Usually salvage awards don’t exceed 25% or so of the value of the property salvaged. Salvage of extremely old vessels, sunk hundreds of years ago are way more complicated than run of the mill salvage claims because there’s not always a clear idea as to who has a claim on the property itself. Generally treaties on salvage specifically _exclude_ state owned cargoes. Naval vessels of countries are often also exempted from the treaties. If you’re in the business of going after extremely old wrecks of state vessels your best bet is to consult the law of the state in question and try to work out some agreement with said state before hand. Extremely old merchant vessels which were privately owned vessels could very well have no legitimate owner and there is a general principle that salvors are entitled to 100% of abandoned property they raise up (most states specifically say that **none** of their naval vessels are to be considered “abandoned property.”) But a shipping company that went defunct 200 years ago has no such claims. ---
**Author:** ![St.Urho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e7dd6/32.png) [@St.Urho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/St.Urho)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odyssey-finds-a-famous-wreck-who-does-it-belong-to/483989/63 "2009-02-03T05:36:00Z")
I just wanted to point out [this related GQ thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10775849#post10775849) about the Griffin- a shipwreck found in Lake Michigan and claimed by a salvage company, the State of Michigan, and France. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odyssey-finds-a-famous-wreck-who-does-it-belong-to/483989/64 "2009-02-03T20:41:12Z")
Mel Fisher found the Atocha which was outside US waters. They still confiscated the treasure. He went to court over 100 times before the supreme court returned it to him. The Atocha sank in 1622. The US government did not exist when it went down. But Florida still took it. Fisher looked for 16 years before he found it. He financed it by himself and investors. The government did nothing to help the wreck salvage but still claimed it as their own. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odyssey-finds-a-famous-wreck-who-does-it-belong-to/483989/65 "2009-02-03T22:15:15Z")
Ok…in my copious spare time (heh) I looked up some information on salvage laws under international treaty that might shed some light on the OP. It seems that I’m wrong about some things concerning how all this plays out (not like it’s the first time I’ve been wrong after all). From [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiralty_law#Salvage_and_treasure_salvage): > [@](#): > > A pure or merit salvage award will seldom exceed 50 percent of the value of the property salved. The exception to that rule is in the case of treasure salvage. Because sunken treasure has generally been lost for hundreds of years, while the original owner (or insurer, if the vessel was insured) continues to have an interest in it, the salvor or finder will generally get the majority of the value of the property. While sunken ships from the Spanish Main (such as Nuestra Señora de Atocha in the Florida Keys) are the most commonly thought of type of treasure salvage, other types of ships including German submarines from World War II which can hold valuable historical artifacts, American Civil War ships (the USS Maple Leaf in the St. Johns River, and the CSS Virginia in Chesapeake Bay), and sunken merchant ships (the SS Central America off Cape Hatteras) have all been the subject of treasure salvage awards.[citation needed] Due to refinements in side-scanning sonars, many ships which were previously missing are now being located and treasure salvage is now a less risky endeavor than it was in the past, although it is still highly speculative. So, it seems that countries or corporations who have lost ships in the past do in fact have some claim to the lost cargo…but that their claim is smaller than the claim by the finder of the treasure. I was right (sort of) about treasure in territorial waters vs international waters wrt the host country. It’s interesting about the Spanish galleons though…afaict Spain has never made a claim to galleons sunk in other countries waters, though if I’m reading the Wiki article right they should have at least some claim. -XT ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odyssey-finds-a-famous-wreck-who-does-it-belong-to/483989/66 "2009-02-03T22:22:51Z")
Found [this](http://www.indiana.edu/~arch/saa/matrix/ael/ael_mod12.htm) also: > [@](#): > > b. Territorial Issues: International law recognizes several distinct maritime zones of jurisdiction. They are: > > ``` > • Territorial Sea: All states claim sovereignty over a belt of sea adjacent to their coastlines and extending out from the low-water mark. In the 18th century, a 3-mile-wide territorial sea developed; LOS I allows nations to declare a 12-mile territorial sea. By 1993, 80% of nations had a 12-mile territorial sea. Underwater cultural heritage in this zone is subject to the coastal state's laws and policies. > > • Contiguous Zone: A zone of extended, specialized powers of a coastal state, extending seaward from the outer edge of the territorial sea to a maximum of 24 miles from the baseline of the territorial sea (i.e., low-water mark). Thus a state with a territorial sea of 12 miles may have a contiguous zone from 12-24 miles. This is not a sovereign area, but coastal states may apply certain controls relating to national customs and fiscal, immigration, and sanitary laws. Article 303 of LOS allows coastal states to regulate "objects of an archaeological and historical nature found at sea" in the contiguous zone as "an infringement within its territory or territorial sea of the laws and regulations" pertaining to that zone. Several states (e.g., Denmark, France, Tunisia, and China) now have laws controlling underwater archaeological sites in this zone. > > • Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ)/ Continental Shelf: LOS allows nations to establish EEZs extending out to a distance of up to 200 miles from the coast. Within the EEZ, nations have the right to control the exploration, exploitation, management, and conservation of living and non-living resources. By 1996, 97 nations claimed an EEZ. > > • High Seas: This zone comprises all the seas beyond the seaward boundary of the EEZ. In this region the principle of Freedom of the High Seas prevails. Article 146 of LOS states that: "All objects of an archaeological and historical nature found in the Area shall be preserved or disposed of for the benefit of mankind as a whole, particular regard being paid for the preferential rights of the State or country of origin, or the State of cultural origin or the State of historical and archaeological origin." > > • The treatment of underwater cultural heritage in LOS is vague and confusing. Still, three principles are clear: (1) states have a duty to protect submerged archaeological resources; (2) states have the right to control submerged archaeological resources in the contiguous zone as if within their own territorial seas; and (3) archaeological resources in the High Seas should be managed on behalf of mankind as a whole. > > ``` > [@](#): > > 1. Admiralty Law/Law of Salvage > [@](#): > > 1. The Abandoned Shipwreck Act of 1987 (ASA) > [@](#): > > 1. Class Report: The Treasure Hunters’ Perspective -XT ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odyssey-finds-a-famous-wreck-who-does-it-belong-to/483989/67 "2009-02-05T15:05:59Z")
Key West was largely founded by salvage crews. there is a Wreckers museum that shows that when ships foundered ,wreckers went out and took everything of value. It was the business that financed the building of key West. That was clearly in Florida waters. Fisher said the government showed very little interest in what he was bringing up in the beginning when it was cannons and artifacts. But when the gold and silver (40 tons) was found, they wanted it. It is about money, not principal. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odyssey-finds-a-famous-wreck-who-does-it-belong-to/483989/68 "2009-02-05T17:34:37Z")
Well, to be fair, it was in US territorial waters, so the US government did have some claim to at least a portion of the treasure. In the end I believe that Fisher got the lions share of the treasure he found…as he SHOULD have, having spent the time and effort in actually going out and finding it. BTW, the next episode of the show is on tonight…this has become one of the few shows I actually look forward to watching on TV these days (Mythbusters being the other one). I know it’s probably a really boring job normally, but I really wish I could do something like that! -XT ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odyssey-finds-a-famous-wreck-who-does-it-belong-to/483989/69 "2009-02-05T20:17:22Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Well, to be fair, it was in US territorial waters, so the US government did have some claim to at least a portion of the treasure. In the end I believe that Fisher got the lions share of the treasure he found…as he SHOULD have, having spent the time and effort in actually going out and finding it. > > BTW, the next episode of the show is on tonight…this has become one of the few shows I actually look forward to watching on TV these days (Mythbusters being the other one). I know it’s probably a really boring job normally, but I really wish I could do something like that! > > -XT I met some guys who did it. they looked forward to every day. They gave me some pots that were encrusted because they were not good enough for them. I was so jealous . ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odyssey-finds-a-famous-wreck-who-does-it-belong-to/483989/70 "2009-02-06T03:54:44Z")
Well it was the HMS Victory circa 1750 they found. 900 crewman went down. It is a huge find with about a trillion dollars of gold coins, but also an historic find. it was the badest ship around back then. It went down going from Portugal to England. (not a long trip) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odyssey-finds-a-famous-wreck-who-does-it-belong-to/483989/71 "2009-02-06T14:28:13Z")
A billion in coins…but yeah, VERY historical. Way cool too. When they brought up that 42 lb gun I was on the edge of my seat (according to the show it’s the only one of it’s kind ever recovered or know to exist at this time…though there is probably an entire gun deck full of them down there somewhere). I think it’s pretty cool how much care they are taking documenting the site, and how adamant the archeologist was in stopping everything when they found human remains. It sounds like the Brits are pretty excited about working with the Odyssey folks in documenting and bringing up the artifacts. -XT ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2009, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odyssey-finds-a-famous-wreck-who-does-it-belong-to/483989/72 "2009-02-07T17:42:23Z")
Site documentation has certainly gotten easier. The photographic techniques make it possible to map a huge area overnight. It used to be a painstaking long process. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odyssey-finds-a-famous-wreck-who-does-it-belong-to/483989/73 "2009-02-07T17:48:38Z")
[http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1876515,00.html](http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1876515,00.html) Heres an article about it. Apparently the Odyssey is qualified to spend years and tons of money and expertise to find the wreck, but are not qualified to retrieve the artifacts. Yet ,they are in touch with the Royal Navy and are keeping the government involved in everything they do. ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odyssey-finds-a-famous-wreck-who-does-it-belong-to/483989/74 "2009-02-07T21:08:02Z")
Having been involved in a couple of salvage efforts, I can assure you that the maritime laws surrounding salvage are complex. One of the major points, however, is the distinction between “lost” and “abandoned”. A ship is lost as soon as it goes down. It is not abandoned, however, until the owner gives up efforts to find and raise it. This is critical, because what might be called the “finders-keepers” option does not come into play until the owner gives up and abandons the vessel. Now, what constitutes “abandonment”, like many other issues in maritime law, is highly dependent on the individual case. In one of the salvage jobs I was involved in, the owner of the vessel (a sailing yacht) went to Australia for a number of months after losing his boat. The court ruled that, because while in Australia the man was working and trying to raise money to salvage his yacht, that it had not been abandoned. This was despite the amount of time he left the wreck just sitting there, and the fact that he had done nothing concrete to raise the boat. The court basically ruled that yes, it takes money to raise a boat, and yes, he intended to raise the boat and was earning money to do so, so he had not abandoned the boat, but merely lost it. So how those fine distinctions come into play when it belonged to a government or has been lost for ten years or a couple hundred years, I don’t know. In fact, no one knows until the court(s) rule on a particular case. But I assure you that it is not as simple as “you lost it, so I can salvage it”, nor as simple as “I never formally relinquished title to it, so you can’t touch it.” ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2009, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odyssey-finds-a-famous-wreck-who-does-it-belong-to/483989/75 "2009-02-07T23:12:15Z")
What I do not get is how the state of Florida claimed the Atocha when it sunk in 1622 long before America existed. besides it was a Spanish ship. Yet Fisher went to court over 100 times before he got control. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/odyssey-finds-a-famous-wreck-who-does-it-belong-to/483989.md?page=3)