# OED owners: date/origin of "nerd"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 12, 2008, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oed-owners-date-origin-of-nerd/472357 "2008-11-12T15:42:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oed-owners-date-origin-of-nerd/472357/21 "2008-11-12T20:01:58Z")
> [@Terminus\_Est](#): > > You’ve never noticed that something like the [Hugo Awards](http://www.thehugoawards.org/?page_id=5), given at the World Science Fiction Convention (Worldcon) by members of the World Science Fiction Society, are award for excellence in the field of science fiction and fantasy? I have noticed that, but it’s not an instance of the term “sf” being used to include fantasy except where the two are explicitly separated. Notice that in the first sentence of the text at the website you pointed me to, the two are explicitly separated. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oed-owners-date-origin-of-nerd/472357/22 "2008-11-12T20:05:44Z")
> [@](#): > > The word nerd existed long before Dr. Suez. It was the name of a game. So where he may be the first to use it for a person, it is a borrowed word, not an original. Do you have a reference or cite for this? I’m curious. The Boston Globe ran an article on the word “nerd” a couple of years ago, and cite the Dr. Seuss work as the origin of the word. I’ve not heard or read of an earlier cite anywhere, and this sounds interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Harmonious\_Discord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/74df32/32.png) [@Harmonious\_Discord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious_Discord)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oed-owners-date-origin-of-nerd/472357/23 "2008-11-12T20:57:34Z")
> **[Arabic Authors by F. F. Arbuthnot](https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/19914)** > > Free kindle book and epub digitized and proofread by volunteers. > **[Chess History and Reminiscences by H. E. Bird](https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/4902)** > > Free kindle book and epub digitized and proofread by volunteers. Do a find on the the files for nerd. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oed-owners-date-origin-of-nerd/472357/24 "2008-11-12T21:15:15Z")
So “nerd” was a [=273164&fk\_files=273164"]board game]([http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/fulltext-context?fulltext=nerd&fk\_files](http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/fulltext-context?fulltext=nerd&fk_files)[) in medieval times? ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oed-owners-date-origin-of-nerd/472357/25 "2008-11-12T21:19:34Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I have noticed that, but it’s not an instance of the term “sf” being used to include fantasy except where the two are explicitly separated. Notice that in the first sentence of the text at the website you pointed me to, the two are explicitly separated. > > -FrL- That’s so no one will complain when works like _Pan’s Labyrinth_ gets awarded the Hugo. Note that it is called the World **Science Fiction** Convention, not the World Science Fiction and Fantasy Convention, yet still includes fantasy. Asimov’s Science Fiction magazine routinely publishes works of fantasy. The Science Fiction Writers and Fantasy of America has always included fantasy writers in their membership, even when they were only known as the Science Fiction Writers of America. Noted science fiction author James Gunn’s [Basic Science Fiction Library](http://www2.ku.edu/~sfcenter/sflib.htm) includes fantasy works by Marion Zimmer Bradley, L. Sprague de Camp, Elizabeth Hand, Fritz Leiber, H.P. Lovecraft, Michael Moorcock, Terry Pratchett, and J.R.R. Tolkien. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oed-owners-date-origin-of-nerd/472357/26 "2008-11-12T21:27:22Z")
> [@Terminus\_Est](#): > > That’s so no one will complain when works like _Pan’s Labyrinth_ gets awarded the Hugo. Note that it is called the World **Science Fiction** Convention, not the World Science Fiction and Fantasy Convention, yet still includes fantasy. Asimov’s Science Fiction magazine routinely publishes works of fantasy. The Science Fiction Writers and Fantasy of America has always included fantasy writers in their membership, even when they were only known as the Science Fiction Writers of America. Noted science fiction author James Gunn’s [Basic Science Fiction Library](http://www2.ku.edu/~sfcenter/sflib.htm) includes fantasy works by Marion Zimmer Bradley, L. Sprague de Camp, Elizabeth Hand, Fritz Leiber, H.P. Lovecraft, Michael Moorcock, Terry Pratchett, and J.R.R. Tolkien. The claim I was asking for citation about was the following: Sf always includes fantasy, except when they are explicitly separated. When the World Science Fiction Convention hosts a fantasy related event, is the work in question referred to as sf, or as fantasy? If sf, then I can see your point, but if as fantasy, then sf and fantasy have been “explicitly separated” in that case. Similar to all your other citations. Maybe I just misunderstood **Exapno Mapcase** ’s claim. I thought he was saying that fantasy stories are also, by virtue of being fantasy stories, sf stories. That’s what I took his use of the word “include” to signify. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Harmonious\_Discord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/74df32/32.png) [@Harmonious\_Discord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious_Discord)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oed-owners-date-origin-of-nerd/472357/27 "2008-11-12T22:17:22Z")
> [@toadspittle](#): > > So “nerd” was a [=273164&fk\_files=273164"]board game]([http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/fulltext-context?fulltext=nerd&fk\_files](http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/fulltext-context?fulltext=nerd&fk_files)[) in medieval times? I can’t tell you how far back the game goes or when the name nerd became associated with it. I can say that those two authors I linked beat Seuss to using it. Arbuthnot, F. F., 1833-1901 A Manual of Arabian History and Literature [Footnote 4: Nerd.–This game is mentioned as early as the Shah-Namah, the author of which, Firdausi, was of opinion that it is of genuine Persian, and not of Indian origin, like chess, but this assertion is not necessarily correct. Hyde has described the game in his ‘Historia Nerdiludii,’ and it resembles somewhat the German puff and triktrak, and the English backgammon. It is played on a board divided into black-and-white compartments, with a black and a white house in the centre. The moves are made according to the numbers that come up on the throw of two dice.] Bird, H. E. (Henry Edward), 1830-1908 Chess History and Reminiscences I have nothing more that I can add on this subject. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oed-owners-date-origin-of-nerd/472357/28 "2008-11-13T00:07:37Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Maybe I just misunderstood **Exapno Mapcase** ’s claim. I thought he was saying that fantasy stories are also, by virtue of being fantasy stories, sf stories. That’s what I took his use of the word “include” to signify. That’s not what I meant. Indeed, it’s the other way around. Fantasy is the more inclusive term. All sf stories are fantasy stories, but not all fantasy stories are sf. Mostly, though, that gets into the definition wars that have raged for decades within the field. Some extremists claim that all fiction is fantasy. What I meant is that the term science fiction, starting sometime after Hugo Gernsbeck started Amazing Stories in 1926, became the common shorthand term to refer to anything that was “otherworldly.” Prose fiction, movies, comics, all were referred to as science fiction. Fantasy was more of a specialized term used for particular kinds of stories. However, you also could find science fantasy, speculative fiction, and many other terms used. In fact, the term science fiction was so commonly used inclusively that fantasy writers became upset that they were not being properly recognized. The Science Fiction Writers of America was founded in 1965 by Damon Knight, who had a bias for science fiction as opposed to fantasy. Even so, stories nominated for their award, the Nebula, included from the start fantasy stories, mainstream stories, “slipstream” stories (mainstream writers attempting speculative works), utopias, magic realism, and other. At some point the organization changed its name officially to the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America, but confusingly kept its acronym of SFWA. Similarly, the Hugo Award of the World Science Fiction Society was presumed to reward science fiction stories. There again fantasy stories were nominated almost from the very start. Many of these were published in the same “science fiction” magazines because editors, readers, and writers didn’t care to make the hard distinction. In recent years, pure fantasy has probably overtaken pure science fiction in its fraction of the market. That’s probably why most people who are writing semi-officially are careful to use science fiction and fantasy to refer to works generated in the field. Even so, old habits die hard and “science fiction” remains common shorthand for the entire field, both within the field and outside in the general mainstream writing community. In more casual use, not usually within the field, the term “sci-fi” is the generic indicator of anything vaguely other. It also encompasses fantasy. Sci-Fi movies can be fantasy, superhero, horror, or a multitude of finer slices of the weird. That’s why there have been definition wars in the field. Everybody wants recognition for what they do, but the boundaries are always blurry. Nobody can agree on where the lines fall and insisting on the tiny distinctions often sounds pretentious. The mystery and romance genres have similar problems. They each have dozens of sub-genres and overlap into general mainstream fiction in ways that are partly sheerly commercial and partly aesthetic. You want fine definitions, you go to the academic arm, the Science Fiction Research Association. Oops. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oed-owners-date-origin-of-nerd/472357/29 "2008-11-13T00:18:00Z")
> [@Harmonious\_Discord](#): > > The word nerd existed long before Dr. Suez. It was the name of a game. So where he may be the first to use it for a person, it is a borrowed word, not an original. It’s only a borrowed word if someone was aware of it and borrowed it. Which seems highly unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oed-owners-date-origin-of-nerd/472357/30 "2008-11-13T00:27:24Z")
> [@Harmonious\_Discord](#): > > I can’t tell you how far back the game goes or when the name nerd became associated with it. I can say that those two authors I linked beat Seuss to using it. > > Arbuthnot, F. F., 1833-1901 > A Manual of Arabian History and Literature > > [Footnote 4: Nerd.–This game is mentioned as early as the > Shah-Namah, the author of which, Firdausi, was of opinion > that it is of genuine Persian, and not of Indian origin, > like chess, but this assertion is not necessarily correct. > Hyde has described the game in his ‘Historia Nerdiludii,’ > and it resembles somewhat the German puff and triktrak, and > the English backgammon. It is played on a board divided into > black-and-white compartments, with a black and a white house > in the centre. The moves are made according to the numbers > that come up on the throw of two dice.] > Bird, H. E. (Henry Edward), 1830-1908 > Chess History and Reminiscences > > I have nothing more that I can add on this subject. In Uzbekistan, backgammon (and variations on it) are known as _nardi_. Sounds to me like a cognate of the same word. edit: Apprently, it goes by the same name in Azerbaijan and Armenia. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oed-owners-date-origin-of-nerd/472357/31 "2008-11-13T00:35:06Z")
John Campbell’s definition keeps everything nice and simple: Science fiction is that which is published in science fiction magazines. Which, in practical terms, meant that he was free to publish pretty much whatever he wanted. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oed-owners-date-origin-of-nerd/472357/32 "2008-11-13T01:12:41Z")
Yeah, but that was the source of all the problems. And it was a lot easier to say back before 1950 when the magazines \*were \*the field, since virtually no books were beig published, and \*Galaxy _and (especially) The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction didn’t yet exist to greatly expand the notion of what was sellable to the major magazines in the field. After F&SF_ the deluge. - The first issue was published under the name _The Magazine of Fantasy_, but Boucher and McComas quickly realized that they had a mix of stories they wanted to publish. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oed-owners-date-origin-of-nerd/472357.md?page=1)