# Of 'arse' and 'shite' vs 'ass' and 'shite' **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 6, 2004, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-arse-and-shite-vs-ass-and-shite/263300 "2004-09-06T03:58:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-arse-and-shite-vs-ass-and-shite/263300/21 "2004-09-07T12:30:23Z")
The usages of ass vs. arse are varied, but the etymology was fascinating. “Arse,” meaning buttocks, is a very old word, listed in the OED as being first used in AD 1000. “Ass” is just as old as a word, but it meant “donkey” up until 1860, when the OED first cites it as meaning “buttocks.” It was first used as a euphemism; “arse” was too vulgar for polite society, so “ass” was used instead. “Arse” fell out of use and “ass” became the vulgar word. In the 20th century, “arse” was revived as a less vulgar term for “ass.” It thus became a euphemism for itself. ---
**Author:** ![RogueRacer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7ab992/32.png) [@RogueRacer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RogueRacer)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-arse-and-shite-vs-ass-and-shite/263300/22 "2004-09-07T19:08:21Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > But there’s still a clear distinction between the short ‘a’ in ‘ass’ and the long ‘a’ in ‘arse’. So how is arse pronounced? The way I always heard it (which is seldom in the US) was with an ‘a’ sound similar to that in _car_ or _father_. The pronounciation guide in my dictionary seems to agree. A long ‘a’ sound here is more like that in _cake_. Along with arse and shite, where does a word I heard in the movie **Formula 51** fit in. I believe the word was _bollocks_, but I guess it could have been bullocks. Any help on that one? ---
**Author:** ![snorlax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@snorlax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snorlax)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-arse-and-shite-vs-ass-and-shite/263300/23 "2004-09-07T19:23:30Z")
Here’s a handy pronunciation courtesy of the _Fast Show_: [http://www.stopstart.btinternet.co.uk/snd/arse.wav](http://www.stopstart.btinternet.co.uk/snd/arse.wav) Though it could be argued that the West Country accent here uses a stronger “R” than you would normally hear. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-arse-and-shite-vs-ass-and-shite/263300/24 "2004-09-07T19:32:53Z")
> [@violacrane](#): > > > [@mhendo](#): > > > > When i lived in Yorkshire for a time (about 12 years ago), “mardy” was quite a common term, and was often followed by “cow” or sometimes \*\* “bitch.”\*\*… > > Living in South Yorkshire now I hear it mostly used of children and pets of either sex. The correct pronounciation would be either “BE-atch” or “be-ATCH!!!” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-arse-and-shite-vs-ass-and-shite/263300/25 "2004-09-07T20:49:26Z")
> [@RogueRacer](#): > > A long ‘a’ sound here is more like that in _cake_ It’s an “ah” sound. Which one it is isn’t always easy to pin down in writing. The long vowel/short vowel terminology used in American schools, frankly, sucks, and it always confuses the issue. No one who knows anything about phonetics would call the “a” in “hat” the “short a” and the “a” in “hate” the “long a.” Those are two completely different sounds – one an unrounded low front vowel ([&] in ASCII IPA) and the other a diphthong ([eI]). “Long” simply means longer than “short,” not a completely different sound. ---
**Author:** ![violacrane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c57346/32.png) [@violacrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/violacrane)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-arse-and-shite-vs-ass-and-shite/263300/26 "2004-09-07T21:37:36Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Well, there you go! Either usage has changed, or you hang out in different circles than i did. > > Where are you, by the way? I was in Doncaster. Sheffield, not far. > [@Angua](#): > > In Lancashire, we used ‘mardy’ to describe anyone in a foul mood. Male or female. Never really applied it to pets though. Over this side of the Pennines it seems to cover whiny as well, hence the appropiateness for some cats, dogs and children 😉 ---
**Author:** ![seosamh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@seosamh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seosamh)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-arse-and-shite-vs-ass-and-shite/263300/27 "2004-09-07T22:47:43Z")
> [@RogueRacer](#): > > So how is arse pronounced? Taking into account the different vowel sounds in English English and North American English, and also the question of how much, if at all, you pronounce the R, I reckon you cannot go far wrong if you pronounce **Arse** the same as you would pronounce **Farce**. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-arse-and-shite-vs-ass-and-shite/263300/28 "2004-09-07T23:23:52Z")
Except, presumably, without the “f”? ---
**Author:** ![seosamh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@seosamh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seosamh)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-arse-and-shite-vs-ass-and-shite/263300/29 "2004-09-07T23:29:49Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Except, presumably, without the “f”? Er, yes. Perhaps I should have used the word “rhyme”. ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2004, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-arse-and-shite-vs-ass-and-shite/263300/30 "2004-09-08T09:50:07Z")
> [@violacrane](#): > > Over this side of the Pennines it seems to cover whiny as well, hence the appropiateness for some cats, dogs and children 😉 I’ve heard it used to describe whiny, but then, I grew up close to the border, so to speak. 😉 Did you use “mard” as well, as a noun? ---
**Author:** ![RogueRacer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7ab992/32.png) [@RogueRacer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RogueRacer)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2004, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-arse-and-shite-vs-ass-and-shite/263300/31 "2004-09-08T14:35:23Z")
Thanks! It seems that I do know how to pronounce it then, even if I’m sure I have a midwestern accent. So, any help on the _bollocks_ thing? How is it used? Is it even a word? Somehow it doesn’t seem worth its own thread. ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2004, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-arse-and-shite-vs-ass-and-shite/263300/32 "2004-09-08T14:41:06Z")
Now, bollocks, that’s a long one. Pull up a chair, and be seated comfortably. Bollocks: 1. Balls, nutsack, scrotum. 2. General swear word, as in “oh _bollocks_!” 3. A way of saying someone’s really messed something up – “you’ve really _bollocksed_ that up.” 4. A harsh telling off – “If you don’t stop that, you’re going to get a right _bollocking_” 5. Something that’s fubared - “that’s _bollocksed_, that is.” 6. In conjunction with the words “the dog’s”, used to mean something is amazing - “that’s _the dog’s bollocks_ that is” Hope that helps. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![violacrane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c57346/32.png) [@violacrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/violacrane)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2004, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-arse-and-shite-vs-ass-and-shite/263300/33 "2004-09-08T13:12:55Z")
> [@Angua](#): > > Did you use “mard” as well, as a noun? No, but mardyarse seems to do the same job! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-arse-and-shite-vs-ass-and-shite/263300.md?page=1)