# Of axles, French mechanics, and Pope-mobiles. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 20, 2002, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-axles-french-mechanics-and-pope-mobiles/99205 "2002-03-20T14:05:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2002, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-axles-french-mechanics-and-pope-mobiles/99205/21 "2002-03-20T18:52:44Z")
> [@](#): > > FTR, CV boots are about the best option for doing what they do on a transaxle-equipped car. They do the job efficiently, with very little to no noise, little heat, and are pretty strong overall I beg to differ. Put some cast iron around that bad boy, and do what’s right for God and country. “Pretty strong” indeed. Ain’t no CV boots on my 1948 Farmall Super A International Harvester, and there ain’t none on my '79 Chevy 4x4 pickup. If poor old Coldie had the benefit of growing up in a country with American know-how he could of taken my truck, he wouldn’t have had any problems, and he could’ve plowed the road. More importantly he could have stashed his stuff along with a six-pack, and a dog in the bed the way God intended instead of having to put that ridiculous space bubble on the top of his car. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2002, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-axles-french-mechanics-and-pope-mobiles/99205/22 "2002-03-21T00:45:43Z")
Before the new boot can be put on the CV joint, the joint has to be disconnected from the hub and then removed from the axle. Ain’t no 15 minute job on any car I’ve seen. My experience mirrors Anthracite’s. I’ve seen tons of cars driven with torn CV boots for months or even years. I’ve seen cars with CV joints that have lost their grease and are making scary noises last for months (and in a handful of cases, over a year). 98% of the time, the axle joint would not fail that drasticly that quickly. Of course, if you’re in the unlucky 2%, you have 100% of a problem. Given how that axle failed, I’d venture that if an attempt had been made to replace the boot, it would have been discovered upon disassembly that the joint was in very bad shape. It would have been necessary to replace the axle anyway. What puzzles me is, how did the grease get on the brake disc? There should be a shield that prevents that. And if it did get on the disc, I would expect that it would significantly reduce the car’s stopping power. I would have been a lot more concerned about that than about axle failure. ---
**Author:** ![Doc\_Nickel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@Doc\_Nickel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doc_Nickel)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2002, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-axles-french-mechanics-and-pope-mobiles/99205/23 "2002-03-21T01:18:58Z")
Speaking as the owner of a front-wheel-drive car, who has had to replace a halfshaft or two, **Antracite** is, for the most part, entirely correct. _However_, under certain conditions, I can easily see a CV being badly damaged in a short period of time. I destroyed one, a huge American-car version, in less than… I’d guess three days. The boot tore, somehow (age, mechanical damage, dry-rot, who knows?) and I’d guess most of the grease exited within the first day. By the second day, I could hear a noticible “whirr”, and by the third day, heavy clunking, especially when putting it in gear or decellerating. Conditions were much like **Cold** describes- late winter, slushy, snow, etc. I believe the primary culprit was the sand put down for traction, brought into the boot by near-continual water and slush spray off the tire. Yes, had it occurred in the middle of summer, I may gave gotten thousands more miles before anything disintegrated. But under those conditions, driving it basically pumped an abrasive slurry directly into the boot, where it probably got a couple of good go-rounds before being flung out and promptly replaced by more. Now, mine didn’t lock up- not with some 400 hp on tap, but the needle-bearing-supported “balls” that formed the CV pivots, were badly grooved and brinelled. Both the yoke and the “cup” of the shaft were ruined. A replacement boot, which I purchased to rebuild a used replacement shaft, was $32 USD. I had the shaft already on the bench, but the total rebuild of the entire unit, including regreasing both CVs, took less than two hours. The last time I peeked under a Citroen or Saab or other import front-driver, I thought the CV was awfully dinky… under similar accellerated-wear conditons as I described, I could easily see enough damage occurring to make the car undriveable. And further, had the boot torn weeks or even months before **Coldfire’s** escapade, the similar wet winter conditons could have gotten a dollop of water into the boot. Which, when allowed to sit for any length of time, even in a grease-encrusted enclosure, would have started parts rusting. And once even a few pieces started to rust, the wear is accellerated greatly, since the bearing surfaces need a surgically-clean and very smooth finish to ride on. Doc. ---
**Author:** ![Zappo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b3f665/32.png) [@Zappo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zappo)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2002, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-axles-french-mechanics-and-pope-mobiles/99205/24 "2002-03-21T02:28:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*Zappo: > > Galvanize, vulcanize, don’t be gettin’ all technical with me 'kay? > > Especially as you’ve proved that you don’t know what you’re talking about. Everybody knows that American cars only come in two varieties. > > 1. Rear wheel Drive car > > 2. Four wheel drive pickup. > > all the rest of that shit was made in Mexico or with foreign parts. > > Any real patriot can take a look at that CV boot and tell you that it’s some left-wing pinko foreign design. \*\* C’mon out and say that after I take you for a ride in the '70 Eldorado parked in the garage next to my '66 Fleetwood Brougham. Five hundred (yes, you read that right, FIVE HUNDRED) cubic inches of cast-iron front wheel drive with 300 horsepower and no emission controls. It’s guaran-damn-teed to plaster you back into the seat. Take THAT, Sierra Club! 😃 When we get back and pry the smiles off our faces with a crowbar I’ll put it on the lift and show you the CV joints. **Doc Nickel** : Were you driving a Toronado or an Eldorado? Zap! ---
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2002, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-axles-french-mechanics-and-pope-mobiles/99205/25 "2002-03-21T02:55:20Z")
Yes, Coldy, but did you get that particular French facial expression that means something like, “You should idolize me for even paying the slightest bit of attention to the gibberish which is pouring out of your mouth”? That completes the story, really. ---
**Author:** ![Doc\_Nickel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@Doc\_Nickel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doc_Nickel)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2002, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-axles-french-mechanics-and-pope-mobiles/99205/26 "2002-03-21T08:37:13Z")
**Zappo** , it’s a '66 Toronado, in fact. Not many other front-drivers with that level of HP, are there? 😃 I’ll race ya in your Eldo. 🙂 I don’t have the 500, but I do have a C-head '68 455- factory rated at 385 gross, though mine has a few mods. The whole car is in the process of a major rework right now. The halfshaft destruction came back when I drove it in near-stock condition. The '66 CVs weren’t as strong as the later versions, but there was an exhibition drag racer years ago, that had _two_ 6-71 supercharged 455s, front and rear, each feeding through what was essentially a pair of bone-stock '66 Toronado drivetrains, including CVs. It’d smoke the slicks- all four of them- for the entire first third of the track. If it’s properly maintained, one simply cannot kill the Toro/Eldo drivetrain. Usually the car rusts out first. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2002, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-axles-french-mechanics-and-pope-mobiles/99205/27 "2002-03-21T14:11:49Z")
Before it died in a crunch of metal and burst of flame, I had a '73 Buck Centurion Convertible, brown, rusty, with hand-painted flames down the sides, duct tape repaired seats, a rock-crusher transmission, street-mag tireswith ben hur type hubcaps and a big fat blower sticking out of the hood from the top of the 455. Not a CV boot on the thing. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2002, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-axles-french-mechanics-and-pope-mobiles/99205/28 "2002-03-21T15:37:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*Before it died in a crunch of metal and burst of flame, I had a '73 Buck Centurion Convertible, brown, rusty, with hand-painted flames down the sides, duct tape repaired seats, a rock-crusher transmission, street-mag tireswith ben hur type hubcaps and a big fat blower sticking out of the hood from the top of the 455. _singing_ And thats why they called him, the Leader of the Pack! ---
**Author:** ![Necros](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/necros/32/11086_2.png) [@Necros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necros)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2002, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-axles-french-mechanics-and-pope-mobiles/99205/29 "2002-03-21T16:46:38Z")
**Doc Nickel** said: > [@](#): > > I’ll race ya in your Eldo. > I don’t have the 500, but I do have a C-head '68 455- factory rated at 385 gross, though mine has a few mods. The whole car is in the process of a major rework right now. We’ll make it a three-way race. I’ll fire up the '68 Eldo with the 472, and we’ll see. 🙂 Note, **Scylla** : All front-wheel-drive cars! ---
**Author:** ![Zappo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b3f665/32.png) [@Zappo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zappo)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2002, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-axles-french-mechanics-and-pope-mobiles/99205/30 "2002-03-21T19:45:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Necros \* > \*\ ***Doc Nickel** said: > We’ll make it a three-way race. I’ll fire up the '68 Eldo with the 472, and we’ll see. 🙂 > > Note, **Scylla** : All front-wheel-drive cars! \*\* Hey, and don’t forget the Ruxton and Cord L-29! One of each of those will be in the garage once I win the Powerball. Zap! ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2002, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-axles-french-mechanics-and-pope-mobiles/99205/31 "2002-03-21T21:30:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Doc Nickel \* > **…there was an exhibition drag racer years ago, that had _two_ 6-71 supercharged 455s, front and rear, each feeding through what was essentially a pair of bone-stock '66 Toronado drivetrains, including CVs. It’d smoke the slicks- all four of them- for the entire first third of the track.** **Doc** , this isn’t the first time I’ve heard of a twin-engined Toro. The first was was a street-legal twin-425 monster featured in some imitation Hot Rod magazine. BTW: would that drag racer be [this one](http://www.draglist.com/Pictures/POD%20May%202001/POD-051301.htm)? I found it while googling for the one from that magazine, along with a [442](http://www.oldsmobility.com/HR_May66_HH.htm) with two 425s mated to Toro trannys. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2002, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-axles-french-mechanics-and-pope-mobiles/99205/32 "2002-03-21T21:45:34Z")
Looks like putting a Toronado engine and trasmission in the rear isn’t all that unusual of a custom job, but [this](http://www.mothers.com/coolcars/customer-coolcars/customer-coolcars_Txt/Eddies84CRX.html) sure is! ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2002, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-axles-french-mechanics-and-pope-mobiles/99205/33 "2002-03-21T22:07:47Z")
Damn, it’s nice to hear people talking about REAL cars! As for the OP, you pretty much lost me with the title’s words, “French mechanic,” as that is an oxymoron. But using the word “reliable” to describe a Peugeot? In the future please submit your fiction to _Teemings._ There’s no place for it in The Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2002, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-axles-french-mechanics-and-pope-mobiles/99205/34 "2002-03-21T23:48:41Z")
I know it’s hard to believe for most Americans, but Peugeot makes excellent cars these days - I’m sure some European posters can back me up on that one. Unfortunately, Peugeot completely ruined their image in North America, and withdrew from the market altogether in the early 90’s. Besides, keep in mind that the CV boot that failed can be found on any modern FWD car, with slight variations. I guess I was the unlucky 2% **Dock Nickel** was referring to: poor conditions, lots of kilometers, et cetera. Nothing you can do. Then again, I DID tell the Citroen mechanic I was heading for the Alps, and I DID tell him I had to drive back to Holland. I guess **Anthracite** (who doesn’t need to apologise one bit, BTW) is right when she says it was just a judgement call gone wrong. Now stop talking about those stoopid American cars, and continue bashing French mechanics, dammit. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2002, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-axles-french-mechanics-and-pope-mobiles/99205/35 "2002-03-22T00:57:55Z")
Far be it from me (as a newbie) to argue with a Highly Respected Dutch Moderator, but… > [@](#): > > Originally posted by **Coldfire** - > > I know it’s hard to believe for most Americans, but Peugeot makes excellent cars these days - I just have to ask, HUH?!!? What **Scylla** said, dammit. I am currently a very bad Yankee, because all _I_ have is a 1997 Ford F150. And that thing spends 90% of its time in my garage. I’m so embarassed. ---
**Author:** ![Doc\_Nickel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@Doc\_Nickel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doc_Nickel)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2002, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-axles-french-mechanics-and-pope-mobiles/99205/36 "2002-03-22T07:38:06Z")
Hey **Coldfire** … Take that extra **K** and give it to **Anthracite** in leiu of the extra **H** I owe her from my first post… **Jeff O** , as cool as that CRX is (hadn’t seen that one) neither it nor the Toro is the one I was referring to, though I was aware of the _Terrifying Toronado_… James Garner, the actor, also drove a modified (single-engine) '66 Toro up the Pike’s Peak rally in the summer of 1966. He also drove a heavily-modified '68 Olds Cutlass (RWD) in a couple of off-road rally type races, like the infamous Barstow-to-Vegas, or some similar desert run. The 442 you linked was the one I was referring to, though I’d never seen the full magazine article photos. **Zappo** - I got a chance to look over a '32 Cord one day, owned by a fellow who also had a pair of '66 Toronados, one of which was his daily driver (back in about '85, I think.) I had owned my Toro a year or two at that point, but since I was comparatively just a ‘punk kid’ to the old man, he was quite surprised that not only did I know what the car was, but I also knew that he’d upgraded the old single-pot “fruit jar” master cylinder to a twin-cylinder and that he had a '68 aircleaner rather than the '66 twin-snorkel. Anyway, unfortunately I spent more time looking at the Cord’s Lycoming supercharger- he had it on the bench rebuilding it- and marvelling at the camshaft drive and little, tiny single-barrel carburetor, than I did poking around under it and checking out the trans and half-shafts. The old man said it had an electric shifter of some sort… as I recall, you “shifted” it with the switch, and when you actually wanted it to physically shift, you just pressed and released the clutch… or some such. I may have that wrong. Still a fascinating car. The Toro designers deliberately evoked a touch of the Cord in the car- the wheels’ hole design and the horizontal-slat grille, among others. Oh, and **Jeff** - If you look around, there’s at least two Toronado-powered Corvairs I’ve seen on the 'net. I don’t have the URLs handy, but maybe a Googling can turn 'em up. One’s very well engineered. Doc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-axles-french-mechanics-and-pope-mobiles/99205.md?page=1)