# Of course a nine-year-old girl can handle a Uzi, right? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 27, 2014, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-a-nine-year-old-girl-can-handle-a-uzi-right/696631 "2014-08-27T14:12:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-a-nine-year-old-girl-can-handle-a-uzi-right/696631/141 "2014-08-28T18:10:28Z")
> [@Laggard](#): > > Yeah. What’s an uzi weigh? Maybe 8 pounds loaded? This girl looked to be your average nine your old. And does it make sense to say that an Uzi is a top-heavy weapon which makes handling recoil even more difficult? I’ve never considered the Uzi particularly ergonomic. In a full auto example, it will be firing from an open bolt. So, you will have a heavy bolt slamming back and forth at a high rate of speed. A child who isn’t strong enough to truly handle the weapon will, as we saw, quickly lose control in full auto. The “instructor” should have known this. He paid with his life for his poor judgement. Young kids can be, and have been, taught to shoot. I’ve done it with my own kids; but, you start them with more appropriate weapons than a submachine gun. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-a-nine-year-old-girl-can-handle-a-uzi-right/696631/142 "2014-08-28T18:11:58Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Would another SMG have been easier to handle for her? Maybe a P90? MP5? PPSh-41? Thompson? Most likely, no. An smg is not the place to begin. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-a-nine-year-old-girl-can-handle-a-uzi-right/696631/143 "2014-08-28T18:19:50Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > I’ve never considered the Uzi particularly ergonomic. In a full auto example, it will be firing from an open bolt. So, you will have a heavy bolt slamming back and forth at a high rate of speed. A child who isn’t strong enough to truly handle the weapon will, as we saw, quickly lose control in full auto. The “instructor” should have known this. He paid with his life for his poor judgement. Young kids can be, and have been, taught to shoot. I’ve done it with my own kids; but, you start them with more appropriate weapons than a submachine gun. Exactly. While the link that **Bullitt** provided was a complete failure as an effort to show that hundreds of 9 year old girls safely fire off Uzis, the school he linked to has excellent age-appropriate firearms courses, well above Nevada state standards. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-a-nine-year-old-girl-can-handle-a-uzi-right/696631/144 "2014-08-28T18:45:18Z")
> [@buddy431](#): > > I don’t get the hate for the parents here. They were participating in an event that is legal and advertised as safe even for young children. We don’t know they’re background, but being from New Jersey, I wouldn’t be surprised if none of them are very experienced with firearms, and thought that being at a range in a controlled environment would be a good time to be exposed. I agree with them too: learning to shoot at a range with an instructor is probably the best place to learn to shoot. The fault here is mostly with the range, who encourage this sort of thing to happen, and partly with the instructor, for not preventing the child from using this type of gun. It’s about exposing a child in your control to a dangerous situation. It’s called child endangerment. Legal to do or not they gave there consent in writing to let their child handle a fully automatic weapon and that weapon ended up killing someone and could have easily killed their child and themselves. In cases such as this with Children s Services the burden is what’s in the best interest of the child? Would a reasonable person think that giving 9 year old control of an fully automatic weapon was placing the child in danger? Since someone was killed by the child while under their care (they filmed it, they were standing right there with the waiver in their pocket) then there should be questions about their parenting and their ability to care for the child. What is in the best interest of the child needs to be asked. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-a-nine-year-old-girl-can-handle-a-uzi-right/696631/145 "2014-08-28T18:47:30Z")
If a kid wants to experience full auto, and I can understand why s/he would after watching movies and playing videogames, there are vastly safer options. Airsoft comes to mind; the green gas models are more entertaining to me than the electric models, YMMV. For a little bump up to a more entertaining level of destructiveness there is the [drozd](http://www.drozdmax.com/drozd-bb-gun.html). These things still require close supervision by an adult, of course, but the chances of anybody getting killed are pretty remote. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-a-nine-year-old-girl-can-handle-a-uzi-right/696631/146 "2014-08-28T19:03:01Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > It’s about exposing a child in your control to a dangerous situation. It’s called child endangerment. Legal to do or not they gave there consent in writing to let their child handle a fully automatic weapon and that weapon ended up killing someone and could have easily killed their child and themselves. In cases such as this with Children s Services the burden is what’s in the best interest of the child? Would a reasonable person think that giving 9 year old control of an fully automatic weapon was placing the child in danger? Since someone was killed by the child while under their care (they filmed it, they were standing right there with the waiver in their pocket) then there should be questions about their parenting and their ability to care for the child. What is in the best interest of the child needs to be asked. That’s going way too far. “Child endangerment” requires that the child be in a situation that more likely than not the child would be exposed to harm, and that a “reasonable person” would know this. I tend to agree that allowing 9 year olds to fire automatic weapons is bone-headed, but I disagree that it rises to the level of child endangerment. The parents hired an alleged expert who was right there with his hands on the kid. The parents did not, in my opinion, fall beneath a criminal standard of care. A “reasonable person” could conclude that the activity was reasonably safe when engaged in on a gun range with a firearms expert directly handling it. > [@](#): > > To be convicted of child endangerment, an adult caregiver must do more than simply make a mistake or act unwisely. A caregiver must place a child in a situation where it is more likely than not the child will become exposed to harm. Courts have ruled, for example, that parents who left their child in a locked car with the engine running while they went into a store for approximately 40 minutes did not endanger the child. > **[Child Endangerment Laws](https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/criminal-defense/criminal-offense/child-endangerment.htm)** > > Criminal charges for child endangerment may result when a parent, guardian, or adult caregiver allows a child to be placed or remain in a dangerous situation. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-a-nine-year-old-girl-can-handle-a-uzi-right/696631/147 "2014-08-28T19:45:29Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > That’s going way too far. “Child endangerment” requires that the child be in a situation that more likely than not the child would be exposed to harm, and that a “reasonable person” would know this. > > I tend to agree that allowing 9 year olds to fire automatic weapons is bone-headed, but I disagree that it rises to the level of child endangerment. The parents hired an alleged expert who was right there with his hands on the kid. The parents did not, in my opinion, fall beneath a criminal standard of care. A “reasonable person” could conclude that the activity was reasonably safe when engaged in on a gun range with a firearms expert directly handling it. > > [What Is Considered Child Endangerment?](http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/criminal-defense/criminal-offense/child-endangerment.htm) The child did not die in the situtation you cite. Courts have decided differently in cases where children have died in locked cars. Someone died in this instance, an investigation would be justified. To quote your own cite: **Injury: actual or potential** Child endangerment laws are designed to punish behavior that might lead to a child becoming harmed, but they do not require that children actually suffer an injury or physical harm. State laws often categorize child endangerment as placing a child in a situation that might endanger the child’s life, health, welfare, morals, or emotional well-being. **However, child endangerment may still be charged in cases where the actions of the caregiver did eventually result in the child being physically injured or harmed**. The child has been mentally harmed and a man is dead; all caused by their actions, they put her in that situation. Again I ask, why shouldn’t they be investigated? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-a-nine-year-old-girl-can-handle-a-uzi-right/696631/148 "2014-08-28T20:01:23Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > The child did not die in the situtation you cite. Courts have decided differently in cases where children have died in locked cars. Someone died in this instance, an investigation would be justified. > > To quote your own cite: **Injury: actual or potential** > Child endangerment laws are designed to punish behavior that might lead to a child becoming harmed, but they do not require that children actually suffer an injury or physical harm. State laws often categorize child endangerment as placing a child in a situation that might endanger the child’s life, health, welfare, morals, or emotional well-being. **However, child endangerment may still be charged in cases where the actions of the caregiver did eventually result in the child being physically injured or harmed**. > > The child has been mentally harmed and a man is dead; all caused by their actions, they put her in that situation. Again I ask, why shouldn’t they be investigated? I think you are misunderstanding the point of what you have cited: it merely states the obvious - that “child endangerment” doesn’t require that the child actually be harmed, but of course, if the child is harmed, a charge may still result. The issue is whether the care-givers fell below the standard of care sufficiently to require criminal sanctions. As a practical matter, the actual death of a person certainly does bring the matter to the attention of authorities, but it does not in and of itself demonstrate that the caregivers fell below the appropriate standard of care. If they did, it would not matter, in theory, whether any actual harm resulted or not; they would be just as guilty if the gun sport went off without anyone actually being hurt. It is falling below the standard of care that is culpable. To my mind, this is “a tragic accident” and not “child endangerment”. The appropriate response by the authorities would be to tighten the regualtions on the gun-range operators, not to charge the parents with a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-a-nine-year-old-girl-can-handle-a-uzi-right/696631/149 "2014-08-28T20:18:54Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > Man, that kid’s life is ruined. How do you get over having shot and killed a guy at 9? ☹ That girl will grow up to be Vice President some day. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-a-nine-year-old-girl-can-handle-a-uzi-right/696631/150 "2014-08-28T20:20:37Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > The child has been mentally harmed and a man is dead; all caused by their actions, they put her in that situation. Again I ask, why shouldn’t they be investigated? & you know this how? You’re a mental health professional who has treated the girl? I’d also argue that he’s dead because of his actions, not the parents. He was the professional in charge of the scene. he was the one who decided she was ready to go full-auto after one round. He was the professional who should know how to position himself both for his own safety & for hers/others. I don’t know what happened as to whether he thought he was in the right position & miscalculated or was distracted at an inopportune moment but _he_ did something wrong & paid for it with his life. Are you also calling on parents to be charged if their child is hurt/killed in Little League? It’s happened [before](http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/06/03/13-year-old-dies-after-getting-hit-by-pitch/) so it’s reasonable to expect it happens again? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-a-nine-year-old-girl-can-handle-a-uzi-right/696631/151 "2014-08-28T21:06:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Exactly. While the link that **Bullitt** provided was a complete failure as an effort to show that hundreds of 9 year old girls safely fire off Uzis, the school he linked to has excellent age-appropriate firearms courses, well above Nevada state standards. I understand the need for pedantry at times. I even engage in it. But it is obvious that there are many ranges who cater to the casual or novice shooter that allow children to shoot automatic weapons. It’s also obvious that they are not going to have exact stats on how many children fire which weapon each year. If it wasn’t happening and it wasn’t lucrative they wouldn’t advertise it. http://shoot.machinegunsvegas.com/products/the-kids-experience MP5 and M4 http://www.battlefieldvegas.com/pages/frequently-asked-questions minimum recoil or mounted only http://www.getyourguide.com/las-vegas-l58/little-giants-machine-gun-experience-for-kids-t36531/ Full auto but .22LR http://gungarage.com/about/faq 8 years old age restriction but reserve the right to refuse if deemed unsafe. I stopped looking. Those are all about Vegas. It’s hard to find out about ranges in Arizona right now since all the google hits are about the incident. But I think you can concede(without putting an exact number on it) that lots of kids are allowed at these ranges and it is safe to assume that most of the time it doesn’t result in dead bodies. That doesn’t make it more or less stupid. According to this story which hits on both the incident and gun tourism in general, the range violated it’s own stated age restriction of 10 years old. ETA forgot link [http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/girl-accidentally-kills-gun-instructor-uzi-25143005](http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/girl-accidentally-kills-gun-instructor-uzi-25143005) Anyone who really believes that DCPP should be called on the parents please feel free to call them yourself. 1 800 NJABUSE ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-a-nine-year-old-girl-can-handle-a-uzi-right/696631/152 "2014-08-29T03:40:37Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > It’s clear there is no stock on the Uzi – if you look at the linked video (it does not show anything off-putting, other than giving a fully automatic weapon to a little girl) about 2/3rd of the way through, you can see clearly there is no stock. > > This just blows my mind. I’ve fired a fully automatic Uzi with a stock, and that thing is no joke to control. I think the Darwin Award-sort of comments are in extremely poor taste, but the lack of judgment in this tragedy is barely comprehensible. I think it has one of those overfolding stocks that look like they’re made out of coat hanger wire. Which makes me this it was a mini uzi (which has even worse flip than a regular uzi). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-a-nine-year-old-girl-can-handle-a-uzi-right/696631/153 "2014-08-29T03:59:15Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Another “range expert” makes the rest of us look like negligent idiots. > > When I teach younger people to shoot rifles, it’s a .22 bolt-action with great diligence practiced. > > I’m still a little confused of how “possess” under the NFA has been interpreted to mean “you can borrow someone’s NFA weapon and fire it with impunity.” How is this legal? By claiming they were “instructing” a 9-year-old who wouldn’t be eligible to buy an Uzi under NFA for 12 more years? I learned on a single round bolt action with .22 shorts. The front and back of the rifle were chained to the floor and you could only fire from the prone position until you got cleared to handle a firearm by the scout rangemaster. Right now I use a break action .22 rifle so its just as accurate with short rounds as it is with long rounds and can only hold one cartridge at a time. I think it has a lot of advantages for teaching gun safety. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-a-nine-year-old-girl-can-handle-a-uzi-right/696631/154 "2014-08-29T04:05:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You’re not kidding. Check out [these selections from his Facebook page.](http://www.balloon-juice.com/2014/08/26/bitter-irony/) He also seems to be pro-gay marriage and into cats. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-a-nine-year-old-girl-can-handle-a-uzi-right/696631/155 "2014-08-29T04:10:20Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > IIRC, no **new** fully automatic weapons can be manufactured or imported for civilian use, but those that were already in civilian hands before a certain date were grandfathered in. > > I’d understood that such weapons were tightly regulated, though. Either I was wrong, or ‘tightly regulated’ has different meanings to different people. You can rent a machine gun at plenty of gun ranges. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-a-nine-year-old-girl-can-handle-a-uzi-right/696631/156 "2014-08-29T04:16:49Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > Man, that kid’s life is ruined. How do you get over having shot and killed a guy at 9? ☹ > [@Voyager](#): > > That girl will grow up to be Vice President some day. You might be onto something. Let’s hope she ends up drawing strength and wisdom from this. Upthread, **Andy L** mentioned Adlai Stevenson ([Adlai Stevenson II - Wikipedia](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adlai_Stevenson_II#Early_life_and_education)): > [@](#): > > On December 30, 1912, at the age of twelve, Stevenson accidentally killed Ruth Merwin, a 16-year-old friend, while demonstrating drill technique with a rifle, inadvertently left loaded, during a party at the Stevenson home. Stevenson was devastated by the accident and rarely referred to it as an adult. However, in 1955 Stevenson heard about a woman whose son had experienced a similar tragedy. He wrote to her that she should tell her son that “he must live for two”, which Stevenson’s friends took to be a reference to the shooting incident. And then there’s the death of the brother of Juan Carlos I of Spain: ([Juan Carlos I - Wikipedia](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Carlos_I_of_Spain#Brother.27s_death)) > [@](#): > > As they were the only two in the room it is unclear how Alfonso was shot but according to Josefina Carolo, dressmaker to Juan Carlos’s mother, Juan Carlos pointed the pistol at Alfonso and pulled the trigger, unaware that the pistol was loaded. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-a-nine-year-old-girl-can-handle-a-uzi-right/696631/157 "2014-08-29T11:29:15Z")
Nine year old wid an uzi? That’s nothin’. Why when Chuck Norris was nine months old, he shot his way out a his mama’s womb t’ FREEDOM ba spittin’ six-hundred rounds pur minute. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-a-nine-year-old-girl-can-handle-a-uzi-right/696631/158 "2014-08-29T13:12:08Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You can rent a machine gun at plenty of gun ranges. I would recommend not doing it with a Muslim coworker with a Muslim name from a Muslim country as a team building exercise when he is supposed to get on a plane that afternoon. Being cavity searched because you are a foreigner with gunpowder reside all over your hands and your first name is Ahmed is not a good way to say “enjoy your time in America.” (we actually went bowling instead when someone pointed out that a full auto range might not be the best way to spend our morning with Ahmed before he had to clear security at the airport). ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-a-nine-year-old-girl-can-handle-a-uzi-right/696631/159 "2014-08-29T14:08:55Z")
Yeah okay, but you want to wash your hands _really_ well after the range. Lead residue isn’t good for anyone, regardless of religion or ethnicity. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-a-nine-year-old-girl-can-handle-a-uzi-right/696631/160 "2014-08-29T16:24:40Z")
I, too, had a knee-jerk reaction to this. However, I am satisfied that the operators of these shooting ranges are taking adequate precautions to avoid incidents like this, and indeed, the rarity of an accident in such venues speaks to that safety record. By contrast, seven American high school football players were killed last fall from on-field injuries. A school-age user is much safer firing an uzi under qualified adult supervision, than on a football field on a Friday night. Kids with guns kill people every week in America, maybe every day, and those who do have probably received no supervised training. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-a-nine-year-old-girl-can-handle-a-uzi-right/696631.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-a-nine-year-old-girl-can-handle-a-uzi-right/696631.md?page=9)