# Of course grammar is prescriptive.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-grammar-is-prescriptive/630222
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [August 2, 2012, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-grammar-is-prescriptive/630222 "2012-08-02T21:44:31Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)
#### Post date: [August 3, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-grammar-is-prescriptive/630222/21 "2012-08-03T17:42:14Z")
> [@TriPolar](#):
>
> **rat** , you don’t have to quote his entire post, and then do it again. If that’s not poor grammar, it should be.
Yes that was a tablet edit fail..sorry
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### Author:  [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)
#### Post date: [August 3, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-grammar-is-prescriptive/630222/22 "2012-08-03T19:08:53Z")
One more thing about prescriptive linguistics as taught to native and non-native speakers of English: The (perhaps sole) intention is to regularize students’ use of English so that they use Standard English rather than show any dialect differences in what they say and write. A good idea since they’ll need that knowledge to do well in any academic and professional communications. Unfortunately the point is rarely if ever made that their dialects are rich and complete and equal in value and status and can be preserved.
(someone up there may have said that but, god, the posts are so long!
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### Author:  [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)
#### Post date: [August 3, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-grammar-is-prescriptive/630222/23 "2012-08-03T20:21:33Z")
(post #15):
> [@rat avatar](#):
>
> So…this post is mostly a stawman or completely off subject…e.g. what does attempted spelling reform in the 1900’s have to do with the motivations of the descriptive grammarians I was talking about from the 1600’s.
>
> If you want to come back with a response and argument that applies to my stance or to the thread I will respond.
You only cited only one grammarian, and for all you know his overall influence was good rather than bad.
Even if it was bad the good influence of those I cite (viz. Shakespeare and Johnson) surely towers over him.
(post #16):
> [@rat avatar](#):
>
> …I was asking for examples of prescription before Lowth btw…that’s the point.
(from post #14):
> [@colonial](#):
>
> …it is because Shakespeare’s transcendent mastery of the language has made him a prescriptivist par excellence for all time…
>
> …Milton was the Chief Secretary for government correspondence during the Protectorate, and probably serves as a model for numerous prescriptivists to this day…
>
> …Prescription need not be anything more than the extemporaneous schoolhouse lessons apparently in use before Lowth kicked off his Grammar in 1762…
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### Author:  [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)
#### Post date: [August 4, 2012, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-grammar-is-prescriptive/630222/24 "2012-08-04T02:06:16Z")
> [@colonial](#):
>
> (post #15):
>
> You only cited only one grammarian, and for all you know his overall influence was good rather than bad.
> Even if it was bad the good influence of those I cite (viz. Shakespeare and Johnson) surely towers over him.
>
> (post #16):
>
> (from post #14):
Did I ever say I thought prescription was a bad thing? I think most of my argument is that it is not as needed as the OP claims.
But I do understand strawman arguments are easy to win…if you enjoy fighting windmills.
I personally do not see how you can ignore the reality that Lowth’s style guide was used in schools with only a counter with a reference to Ann Fisher with a vague and incorrect Inference that she was a pure prescriptive grammarian.
Even had she been as prescriptive as Lowth, it was his opinions which were codified and converted to the curriculum foisted upon the majority of English students.
Many of his stylistic opinions were not based on the need to convey information or to fit in with English usage but were direct copies of their Latin predecessors.
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### Author:  [@Full\_Tilt\_Boogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Full_Tilt_Boogie)
#### Post date: [August 4, 2012, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-grammar-is-prescriptive/630222/25 "2012-08-04T02:50:11Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#):
>
> The sort of grammar that’s necessary for communication isn’t taught, because there’s no need: children learn it automatically in the first few years of their life.
And you learnt this philological pearl of wisdom, where, precisely?
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### Author:  [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)
#### Post date: [August 4, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-grammar-is-prescriptive/630222/26 "2012-08-04T16:00:55Z")
> [@rat avatar](#):
>
> Did I ever say I thought prescription was a bad thing? I think most of my argument is that it is not as needed as the OP claims.
You have gone from prescrition is “not” needed to prescrition is “not _as_ needed”. Make up your mind.
My view is that it is needed now more than ever due to the apparent popularity of a faction which thinks
it would be fine and dandy if half the country spoke in monstrosities like this:
“English speekee school learns to me language good”
> [@rat avatar](#):
>
> But I do understand strawman arguments are easy to win…if you enjoy fighting windmills.
What you need to understand is that your repeating a wrong does not make it right.
> [@rat avatar](#):
>
> I personally do not see how you can ignore the reality that Lowth’s style guide was used in schools with only a counter with a reference to Ann Fisher with a vague and incorrect Inference that she was a pure prescriptive grammarian.
All grammars are prescriptive, aren’t they? And I am sure Ms Fisher’s spirit is offended by your
casting aspersion on her purity.
> [@rat avatar](#):
>
> Even had she been as prescriptive as Lowth, it was his opinions which were codified and converted to the curriculum foisted upon the majority of English students.
>
> Many of his stylistic opinions were not based on the need to convey information or to fit in with English usage but were direct copies of their Latin predecessors.
Here, from a [History of English grammars](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_English_grammars) is a list of grammars published 1745-1898:
1. Ann Fisher (grammarian) A New Grammar.
2. Robert Lowth: A short introduction to English grammar: with critical notes.1763. John Ash: Grammatical institutes: or, An easy introduction to Dr. Lowth’s English grammar.
3. William Ward: An Essay on English Grammar.
4. Samuel Johnson: A dictionary of the English Language…: to which is prefixed, a Grammar of the English Language.
5. Joseph Priestley: The Rudiments of English Grammar: Adapted to the Use of Schools.
6. Lindley Murray: English grammar: adapted to the different classes of learners.
7. Noah Webster: A Grammatical Institute of the English Language.
8. William Cobbett: A Grammar of the English Language, In a Series of Letters1850. William Chauncey Fowler: English grammar: The English language in its elements and forms.
1874 Eduard Adolf Maetzner, An English grammar: methodical, analytical, and historical. With a treatise on the orthography, prosody, inflections and syntax of the English tongue, and numerous authorities cited in order of historical development. (English translation of Englische Grammatik (1860–65)).
1892/98. Henry Sweet: A New English Grammar, Logical and Historical (Part 1: Introduction, Phonology, and Accidence; Part 2: Syntax).
As you see there are several much more famous names than “Lowth” on the list.
Now, how about a citation from you purporting to establish (1) Lowth’s dominance,
and (2) the fact that his influence was more bad than good. One-sided tirades such
as yours do not count.
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### Author:  [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)
#### Post date: [August 4, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-grammar-is-prescriptive/630222/27 "2012-08-04T20:14:47Z")
No modern grammars, as the term is used today, are prescriptive. There are grammar books that are prescriptive. But a “grammar” in academics refers to decriptive and explanatory systems, such as Transformational Grammar (Chomsky), Cognitive Grammar (Langacker), etc.
Prescriptive grammars are not a part of theoretical linguistics AT ALL. While there were certain factors in this development that happened before Chomsky, his Transformational Grammar broke new ground in Linguistics to lead to the modern branch of study.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [August 4, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-grammar-is-prescriptive/630222/28 "2012-08-04T20:25:08Z")
> [@Full\_Tilt\_Boogie](#):
>
> And you learnt this philological pearl of wisdom, where, precisely?
You really need a cite to demonstrate that humans can acquire language without going to school?
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### Author:  [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)
#### Post date: [August 4, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-grammar-is-prescriptive/630222/29 "2012-08-04T20:43:46Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> You really need a cite to demonstrate that humans can acquire language without going to school?
Well, if you [keep your child locked up alone and strapped to a potty chair until the age of thirteen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genie_(feral_child)) she can’t. Maybe that’s his idea of staying home from school.
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### Author:  [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)
#### Post date: [August 4, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-grammar-is-prescriptive/630222/30 "2012-08-04T21:20:25Z")
> [@tapu](#):
>
> No modern grammars, as the term is used today, are prescriptive. There are grammar books that are prescriptive. But a “grammar” in academics refers to decriptive and explanatory systems, such as Transformational Grammar (Chomsky), Cognitive Grammar (Langacker), etc.
>
> Prescriptive grammars are not a part of theoretical linguistics AT ALL. While there were certain factors in this development that happened before Chomsky, his Transformational Grammar broke new ground in Linguistics to lead to the modern branch of study.
“Grammar” is accepted modern usage for a grammar textbook.
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### Author:  [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-grammar-is-prescriptive/630222/31 "2012-08-05T15:41:18Z")
> [@tapu](#):
>
> No modern grammars, as the term is used today, are prescriptive. There are grammar books that are prescriptive. But a “grammar” in academics refers to decriptive and explanatory systems, such as Transformational Grammar (Chomsky), Cognitive Grammar (Langacker), etc.
Fine.
This is about using grammar, not just studying it. You have to learn the rules before you learn how to break them.
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### Author:  [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-grammar-is-prescriptive/630222/32 "2012-08-05T18:04:19Z")
Think of it this way…
If the authorities decided that English should have Latin style gendered nouns, and future text books and style manuals included gendered nouns, do you think people would start using them on a regular basis?
On the other hand, if everyone for some reason decided to use gendered nouns, do you think that the grammar manuals would change to reflect this?
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### Author:  [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-grammar-is-prescriptive/630222/33 "2012-08-05T20:03:06Z")
> [@even\_sven](#):
>
> Think of it this way…
>
> If the authorities decided that English should have Latin style gendered nouns, and future text books and style manuals included gendered nouns, do you think people would start using them on a regular basis?
No. So what?
> [@even\_sven](#):
>
> On the other hand, if everyone for some reason decided to use gendered nouns, do you think that the grammar manuals would change to reflect this?
Yes. So what?
The whole point is to promote enough of a standard to allow all speakers
to understand all other speakers.
Absense of standard risks proliferation of “Me speekee…” dialects with
no semblance of offsetting benefit.
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### Author:  [@Vaevictis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vaevictis)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-grammar-is-prescriptive/630222/34 "2012-08-05T21:33:43Z")
For those seeking to be scientific studiers of language, the emphasis on approaches based on description instead of prescription makes sense, especially given that languages which still have native speakers are in a state of flux.
Equally important, however, is the fact that most language users operate in practice as prescriptive grammarians. It seems everybody wants everybody else to talk to them in accordance with prior expectations of how language should be used. Viewed from the perspective of many centuries, the urge appears quixotic, but nevertheless it is fundamental to how humans employ their language ability.
So I don’t see it as much of a debate. When you study language, be descriptionist, but when you use it be prescriptionist like everybody else.
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### Author:  [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2012, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-grammar-is-prescriptive/630222/35 "2012-08-05T22:10:13Z")
> [@colonial](#):
>
> You have gone from prescrition is “not” needed to prescrition is “not _as_ needed”. Make up your mind.
>
> My view is that it is needed now more than ever due to the apparent popularity of a faction which thinks
> it would be fine and dandy if half the country spoke in monstrosities like this:
>
> “English speekee school learns to me language good”
Hrm how odd it is that Shakespeare managed to without prescriptive grammars isn’t it? Your assumption is purely fiction.
Your snark doesn’t destroy the massive amounts of iconic English literature that existed before your precious prescription.
It is, GASP!, even readable by us today!!! how did they do that without prescription?
> [@](#):
>
> What you need to understand is that your repeating a wrong does not make it right.
>
> All grammars are prescriptive, aren’t they? And I am sure Ms Fisher’s spirit is offended by your
> casting aspersion on her purity.
Her books were quite popular for a very long time but it was not adapted and foisted on children in the school system to the same extent.
> [@](#):
>
> Here, from a [History of English grammars](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_English_grammars) is a list of grammars published 1745-1898:
>
> (snip)
>
> As you see there are several much more famous names than “Lowth” on the list.
>
> Now, how about a citation from you purporting to establish (1) Lowth’s dominance,
> and (2) the fact that his influence was more bad than good. One-sided tirades such
> as yours do not count.
Where in the heck did I say there weren’t other books published…or published by non-famous people
Lowth’s prescriptive rules, some of which did NOT fit in with the contemporary established rules but was adopted by several people like Lindley Murray who had the most popular English school book in the US for the better part of a century.
(2) is a straw man again, even if you call my argument a tirade.
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### Author:  [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)
#### Post date: [August 5, 2012, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-grammar-is-prescriptive/630222/36 "2012-08-05T23:38:19Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#):
>
> Hrm how odd…
No further discussion until you provide some documentation of your own.
I want a linkie from you to some source firmly establishing that this Lowth
guy was (1) dominant, and how (2) his dominance did more harm than good.
Such petty gaucheries as the prohibition on ending sentences with a preposition
are too trivial to mention. Churchill may have been the only English writer to write:
“This is the type of nonsense up with which I will not put”, but he was not the only
writer who has felt free to ignore it, without damage to clarity, style or reputation.
---
### Author:  [@Robb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robb)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-grammar-is-prescriptive/630222/37 "2012-08-06T01:18:17Z")
> [@colonial](#):
>
> No further discussion until you provide some documentation of your own.
>
> I want a linkie from you to some source firmly establishing that this Lowth
> guy was (1) dominant, and how (2) his dominance did more harm than good.
>
> Such petty gaucheries as the prohibition on ending sentences with a preposition
> are too trivial to mention. Churchill may have been the only English writer to write:
> “This is the type of nonsense up with which I will not put”, but he was not the only
> writer who has felt free to ignore it, without damage to clarity, style or reputation.
You won’t find evidence that Churchill wrote such a sentence. And John Dryden most likely invented the proscription against using a sentence to end a sentence.
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### Author:  [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-grammar-is-prescriptive/630222/38 "2012-08-06T01:43:11Z")
> [@Robb](#):
>
> You won’t find evidence that Churchill wrote such a sentence.
I have lost count of the number of attributions I have run across which have
turned out to be incorrect. Too bad, because most of them sound like the
kind of thing the attributee would have said.
> [@Robb](#):
>
> And John Dryden most likely invented the proscription against using a sentence to end a sentence.
The only reference I ever saw to the prosciption’s origin was sometyhing like
“pedant schoolmaster tried to make English conform to Latin”.
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### Author:  [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-grammar-is-prescriptive/630222/39 "2012-08-06T02:39:21Z")
“Prescrition?” “Sometyhing?” Ms **Gaudere** must be spinning in her lounge chair (where the hell did she go?). While **colonial** sets up a spell checker for his browser (and looks up “word wrap”) can we go back to talking about milfs?
We weren’t? That was just more playing with grammar and spelling? This thread sucks. :mad:
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### Author:  [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)
#### Post date: [August 6, 2012, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-grammar-is-prescriptive/630222/40 "2012-08-06T03:00:08Z")
> [@dropzone](#):
>
> “Prescrition?” “Sometyhing?” Ms **Gaudere** must be spinning in her lounge chair (where the hell did she go?). While **colonial** sets up a spell checker for his browser (and looks up “word wrap”)
Bringing up crap like the above me want to suggest you ought to stop
everything else you are doing right now and get that burr out of your panties.
> [@dropzone](#):
>
> can we go back to talking about milfs?
>
> We weren’t? That was just more playing with grammar and spelling? This thread sucks. :mad:
Only thing that really sucks about this thread is your post. Go find some other
thread where some Junior High kids are having the time of their lives talking
in sex acronyms. I promise you’ll fit right in.
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