# Of course I don't worship Satan, moron! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 28, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-i-dont-worship-satan-moron/569317 "2011-01-28T17:53:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-i-dont-worship-satan-moron/569317/81 "2011-01-31T17:27:50Z")
I like how Lewis thought that critical thinking (“materialists and sceptics”) was evil, and that he was so threatened by science. How this guy is regarded as such a convincing apologist by some people, I’ll never know. He was self-righteous, sniveling, judgemental and fallacy prone. he was also an advocate of the argument from morality, which has some relevance to this thread (since most people are moral, that proves a magic fairy is making them that way). ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-i-dont-worship-satan-moron/569317/82 "2011-01-31T18:10:31Z")
Perhaps it’s not so much about wanting to credit the magic fairy making them good as wanting to be able to blame the OTHER magic fairy for when they turn out to be an unmitigated bastard. 😃 One of my favorite quotes along these lines is from _The Snake Oil Wars_ by Parke Godwin: “Who wants to believe he can be a son of a bitch without help?” ---
**Author:** ![Cyningablod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Cyningablod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyningablod)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-i-dont-worship-satan-moron/569317/83 "2011-01-31T18:24:48Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > […] How this guy is regarded as such a convincing apologist by some people, I’ll never know. […] I’m not sure the more sophisticated Christians find him all that convincing. (But then, the “sophisticated Christian” is, IMHO, a pretty rare animal. And if [Josh McDowell](http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jury/) is as popular as _he_ is, what does that say about Christians’ ability to evaluate arguments? :eek:) I think Lewis’ appeal lies in his fiction; he popularized and glamorized a lot of Christian mythology, and made it palatable to the more literate among the rank-and-file anglophone Christian believers. Never underestimate the power of a compelling fictional narrative. ([cough] Like The Bible! [cough]) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-i-dont-worship-satan-moron/569317/84 "2011-01-31T19:58:03Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I like how Lewis thought that critical thinking (“materialists and sceptics”) was evil, and that he was so threatened by science. And yet, he had pretensions – I will not even dignify them as “delusions” – to the contrary. Also from _Screwtape:_ > [@](#): > > MY DEAR WORMWOOD, > > I note what you say about guiding our patient’s reading and taking care that he sees a good deal of his materialist friend. But are you not being a trifle _naïf?_ It sounds as if you supposed that _argument_ was the way to keep him out of the Enemy’s clutches. That might have been so if he had lived a few centuries earlier. At that time the humans still knew pretty well when a thing was proved and when it was not; and if it was proved they really believed it. They still connected thinking with doing and were prepared to alter their way of life as the result of a chain of reasoning. But what with the weekly press and other such weapons we have largely altered that. Your man has been accustomed, ever since he was a boy, to have a dozen incompatible philosophies dancing about together inside his head. He doesn’t think of doctrines as primarily “true” of “false”, but as “academic” or “practical”, “outworn” or “contemporary”, “conventional” or “ruthless”. Jargon, not argument, is your best ally in keeping him from the Church. Don’t waste time trying to make him think that materialism is true! Make him think it is strong, or stark, or courageous—that it is the philosophy of the future. That’s the sort of thing he cares about. > > **The trouble about argument is that it moves the whole struggle onto the Enemy’s own ground.** He can argue too; whereas in really practical propaganda of the kind I am suggesting He has been shown for centuries to be greatly the inferior of Our Father Below. By the very act of arguing, you awake the patient’s reason; and once it is awake, who can foresee the result? Even if a particular train of thought can be twisted so as to end in our favour, you will find that you have been strengthening in your patient the fatal habit of attending to universal issues and withdrawing his attention from the stream of immediate sense experiences. Your business is to fix his attention on the stream. Teach him to call it “real life” and don’t let him ask what he means by “real”. > > \ > > . . . Above all, do not attempt to use science (I mean, the real sciences) as a defence against Christianity. They will positively encourage him to think about realities he can’t touch and see. There have been sad cases among the modern physicists. If he must dabble in science, keep him on economics and sociology; don’t let him get away from that invaluable “real life”. But the best of all is to let him read no science but to give him a grand general idea that he knows it all and that everything he happens to have picked up in casual talk and reading is “the results of modem investigation”. Do remember you are there to fuddle him. From the way some of you young fiends talk, anyone would suppose it was our job to _teach!_ The bolded sentence has got to be the most dishonest line a Christian ever wrote. ---
**Author:** ![Cyningablod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Cyningablod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyningablod)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-i-dont-worship-satan-moron/569317/85 "2011-01-31T20:07:11Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The bolded sentence has got to be the most dishonest line a Christian ever wrote. That’s _saying_ something! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-i-dont-worship-satan-moron/569317/86 "2011-01-31T21:12:42Z")
I think it’s problematic to use _Screwtape_ as evidence for what Lewis himself thought/believed/taught. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-i-dont-worship-satan-moron/569317/87 "2011-01-31T21:57:22Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I think it’s problematic to use _Screwtape_ as evidence for what Lewis himself thought/believed/taught. Bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Cyningablod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Cyningablod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyningablod)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-i-dont-worship-satan-moron/569317/88 "2011-01-31T23:24:36Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I think it’s problematic to use _Screwtape_ as evidence for what Lewis himself thought/believed/taught. Why? His fiction was clearly an expression of his Christianity, and the ideas he had thereupon. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-i-dont-worship-satan-moron/569317/89 "2011-01-31T23:25:42Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I think it’s problematic to use _Screwtape_ as evidence for what Lewis himself thought/believed/taught. Please elaborate on why you think it’s problematic. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-i-dont-worship-satan-moron/569317/90 "2011-02-01T00:12:40Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Please elaborate on why you think it’s problematic. Because—and I had thought this was so obvious as not to need elaboration—the passages that were quoted were the words of a fictional character; and as a general rule one cannot assume that the words an author places in the mouth (or pen) of one of his characters accurately reflect what the author himself believes. In this case, the character in question is a devil, so of course one cannot take everything Screwtape says at face value. Admittedly, _The Screwtape Letters_ was written partly for didactic purposes, for Lewis to express his beliefs, opinions, and insights on various matters. Which is why I didn’t, and wouldn’t, claim that one cannot learn anything about what Lewis believed from reading _Screwtape_, only that it is **problematic**. Even when Lewis is expressing things he himself believes, we cannot assume we have the full explanations, nuances, qualifications, etc. that we would get if he were writing in his own voice. Since we do have plenty of non-fiction (books, essays, letters) in which Lewis did express himself in his own voice, I would rather see claims about Lewis backed up by other sources beyond just _Screwtape_. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-i-dont-worship-satan-moron/569317/91 "2011-02-01T01:33:09Z")
> [@Cyningablod](#): > > Paul writes in his first letter to the Corinthians that, “For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight.” (3:19) I have seen that one on occasion - is it interpreted to mean that education itself is ungodly? How does it relate to Jew’s propensity towards education for education’s sake? ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-i-dont-worship-satan-moron/569317/92 "2011-02-01T01:36:07Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > It’s a little similar to discussions we’ve had about homophobes who think that anyone could easily be turned gay – because they are attracted to the same sex (although they try very hard to repress it), everyone else must feel the same attraction. Did I understand that right? You are equating your own certainty of belief in god to homophobia? ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-i-dont-worship-satan-moron/569317/93 "2011-02-01T01:42:33Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Lots of adults weren’t as critical as I was at age 7 though, apparently. No fucking kidding! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-i-dont-worship-satan-moron/569317/94 "2011-02-01T01:53:47Z")
> [@not\_alice](#): > > I have seen that one on occasion - is it interpreted to mean that education itself is ungodly? > > How does it relate to Jew’s propensity towards education for education’s sake? I t doesn’t. Corinthians is a Christian book, not a Jewish one. Paul himself was Jewish, of course, but he was well off the reservation theologically. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-i-dont-worship-satan-moron/569317/95 "2011-02-01T03:11:29Z")
I have to agree with **Thudlow**. Lewis might sincerely believe in devils, and he might also believe that they have a hopeless weakness for error. They revolve around a different ethico-rational axis than humans, or angels, or you name it. We shouldn’t necessarily take this one line and hold it up as Christian doctrine. Unfortunately the theists are not always particularly rational, and it’s tempting. yah I just now made up ‘ethico-rational’ ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-i-dont-worship-satan-moron/569317/96 "2011-02-01T04:48:31Z")
_Screwtape_ is most certainly a vehicle for expressing Lewis’ real views. The use of literal devils is neither here nor there, I assume he was using them allegorically, but the point of the book is about the kinds of thought patterns which (in Lewis’ mind) lead one subtly away from God. When Lewis had his devil say that logical argument leads to God (and therefore devils should avoid it), that’s what he really thought. That’s exactly the kind of thing he said in _Mere Christianity_. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-i-dont-worship-satan-moron/569317/97 "2011-02-01T05:07:15Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > When Lewis had his devil say that logical argument leads to God (and therefore devils should avoid it), that’s what he really thought. That’s exactly the kind of thing he said in _Mere Christianity_. That’s interesting, I didn’t know that. Still, Lewis is an artist and he is just working some puppets with his devils. Maybe Lewis subconsciously attributed all his unresolved musings to the devils, who knows? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-i-dont-worship-satan-moron/569317/98 "2011-02-01T05:11:58Z")
> [@](#): > > the point of the book is about the kinds of thought patterns which (in Lewis’ mind) lead one subtly away from God. Well his interpretations of those thought patters are kind of drivel if he is serious about ‘worshiping’ sex; or the self, or what-have-you. People may _have_ sex, or selves, or property without it becoming an act of worship. It would be hard to humor such an elision. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-i-dont-worship-satan-moron/569317/99 "2011-02-01T05:23:40Z")
I’m not saying I think he was right, just that he was sincere. Not everything in _Screwtape_ is crap, though, he does have some insights about the banality of selfish thoughts, and how people can be distracted from noble ambitions by trivial appetites, but I think the drivel outweighs the good. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-i-dont-worship-satan-moron/569317/100 "2011-02-01T05:51:25Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > but I think the drivel outweighs the good. I almost want to make that my signature. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-i-dont-worship-satan-moron/569317.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-i-dont-worship-satan-moron/569317.md?page=6)