# Of Course, It's Going To Be Florida, ... Again! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 28, 2004, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-its-going-to-be-florida-again/257230 "2004-07-28T04:19:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-its-going-to-be-florida-again/257230/41 "2004-08-04T16:26:59Z")
I’m hoping that the Democrats in Missouri actually all get to vote this year, & it will outweigh what Jeb’s little cartel pulls. Then there’s this bizarre little story: [http://www.pbs.org/newshour/vote2004/demconvention/mo\_voting.htm](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/vote2004/demconvention/mo_voting.htm) No early voting? Ever hear of \absentee ballots???\ ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-its-going-to-be-florida-again/257230/42 "2004-08-04T18:15:00Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > NBC News reported tonight that the Florida GOP is issuing a brochure to all Republicans to obtain their absentee ballot as soon as possible, regardless of whether they will/will not be away from home on election day. > > Anyone in Florida to corroborate the story from a local point of view? I haven’t received anything in the mail like this. Which really sucks because I will probably NEED an absentee ballot. But, I’m too lazy to figure out where/how to go get one. Considering Florida will probably decide this election just like in 2000, and the I-4 Corridor makes up 25% of Florida’s votes, you guys can be happy that Bush will lose a vote because I don’t care enough to get an absentee ballot. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-its-going-to-be-florida-again/257230/43 "2004-08-04T18:54:15Z")
Well, assuming you live in Bay County, you [fill in this form](http://www.bayvotes.org/absenteeform.htm). My guess is that the other counties [have similar forms to fill out](http://election.dos.state.fl.us/absenteeballot.shtml). **foolsguinea** , apparently, in Missouri, you need a [reason for voting absentee](http://stlouis.missouri.org/citygov/electionbd/general2004July.pdf) (well, a reason other than “I’d rather mail in my vote” which is all the reason you need in my state). So, no, many people can’t vote early by absentee ballot. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-its-going-to-be-florida-again/257230/44 "2004-08-04T19:14:11Z")
Wow, that was quick, easy and painless. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-its-going-to-be-florida-again/257230/45 "2004-08-04T23:29:45Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I offer for your consideration a Constitutional amendment: > > “All public elections shall use paper ballots marked in pencil by the voter and counted manually.” > > Canada does it, and it works well. So we wouldn’t have results on TV as fast. Big whoop. You have the ballots as physical evidence for as long as need be or as many recounts as it takes. Of course, we only vote for one position in our federal elections - the local Member of Parliament. For example, in the recently concluded election, in my riding, we only had to choose between five candidates for the one seat (Conservative, Liberal, New Democrat, Green, and Christian Heritage). That’s why the system works well. As others have commented, it likely wouldn’t translate well into a system where you’re electing the President, senator, congresscritter, state reps and municipal reps, let alone plebescite questions. But that raises another question: why does everything have to be all on the same day in American elections? Why not stagger the elections so that federal elections are on even years, as currently; state elections are always on odd years; and municipal elections could be on a different cycle entirely (e.g. - spring elections for municipal matters)? That way, for federal elections, you would only have two or three ballots: one for the Prez/Veep choice; one for the local congresscritter; and in two out of three electoral cycles, a senate ballot. Paper and pencil would likely be quite efficient for three separate, simple ballots. And as for the time needed to count the ballots, well, I’ve never noticed much of a difference between the speed of election returns in Canada and the U.S. In our recent election, the results were pretty clear about an hour after the polls closed in the west. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-its-going-to-be-florida-again/257230/46 "2004-08-17T00:49:09Z")
Here’s a new (and thoroughly revoltin’) development! (I owe this to **elucidator’s** thread in the BBQ Pit – [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=271561](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=271561)). From Bill Herbert’s op-ed column in the New York Times, August 16, 2004 () (if you’re not a subscriber, Der Speigel Online picked up the story – [http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,313458,00.html](http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,313458,00.html)): > [@](#): > > State police officers have gone into the homes of elderly black voters in Orlando and interrogated them as part of an odd “investigation” that has frightened many voters, intimidated elderly volunteers and thrown a chill over efforts to get out the black vote in November. > > The officers, from the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, which reports to Gov. Jeb Bush, say they are investigating allegations of voter fraud that came up during the Orlando mayoral election in March. > > Officials refused to discuss details of the investigation, other than to say that absentee ballots are involved. They said they had no idea when the investigation might end, and acknowledged that it may continue right through the presidential election. > > “We did a preliminary inquiry into those allegations and then we concluded that there was enough evidence to follow through with a full criminal investigation,” said Geo Morales, a spokesman for the Department of Law Enforcement. > > The state police officers, armed and in plain clothes, have questioned dozens of voters in their homes. Some of those questioned have been volunteers in get-out-the-vote campaigns. > > I asked Mr. Morales in a telephone conversation to tell me what criminal activity had taken place. > > “I can’t talk about that,” he said. > > I asked if all the people interrogated were black. > > "Well, mainly it was a black neighborhood we were looking at - yes,’’ he said. > > He also said, “Most of them were elderly.” > > When I asked why, he said, “That’s just the people we selected out of a random sample to interview.” > > \ > > Not surprisingly, many of the elderly black voters who found themselves face to face with state police officers in Orlando are members of the Orlando League of Voters, which has been very successful in mobilizing the city’s black vote. > > \ > > Joseph Egan, an Orlando lawyer who represents Mr. Thomas [Ezzie Thomas, president of the Orlando League of Voters], said: “The Voters League has workers who go into the community to do voter registration, drive people to the polls and help with absentee ballots. They are elderly women mostly. They get paid like $100 for four or five months’ work, just to offset things like the cost of their gas. They see this political activity as an important contribution to their community. Some of the people in the community had never cast a ballot until the league came to their door and encouraged them to vote.” > > Now, said Mr. Egan, the fear generated by state police officers going into people’s homes as part of an ongoing criminal investigation related to voting is threatening to undo much of the good work of the league. He said, "One woman asked me, ‘Am I going to go to jail now because I voted by absentee ballot?’ " > > According to Mr. Egan, “People who have voted by absentee ballot for years are refusing to allow campaign workers to come to their homes. And volunteers who have participated for years in assisting people, particularly the elderly or handicapped, are scared and don’t want to risk a criminal investigation.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-its-going-to-be-florida-again/257230/47 "2004-08-17T00:50:31Z")
Sorry, flubbed the NYT link – [http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/16/opinion/16herbert.html?hp](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/16/opinion/16herbert.html?hp) ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2004, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-its-going-to-be-florida-again/257230/48 "2004-08-17T02:39:04Z")
Wow. This is strange. In the first place, if predominantly black precincts are doing something illegal with the absentee ballots, then I don’t see why the police should hold back an investigation just because of the fears of political repurcussions. Second, would it be better if these mostly elderly folks were summoned to the police station instead? The cops are probably thnking it’s easier on the workers to interview them at home rather than make them travel downtown. I also doubt they’re busting down people’s doors–if asked to leave or come back later, I’m sure they do. They can’t get in unless the resident lets them in, right? I also am curious as to how many voters of other ethnicites are involved. Maybe this is a wide-ranging thing where the interviews happen to be mostly-black wards first. I just don’t know. I respect Bob Herbert a lot but there’s a lot of holes here. I can only imagine the history that goes through peoples’ minds down there but neither do I think elderly or black voters are fragile flowers whom the system dares not scare by asking them questions about a federal crime. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2004, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-its-going-to-be-florida-again/257230/49 "2004-08-23T15:05:15Z")
Here’s an update on the Orlando story: [http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/20/opinion/20herbert.html?n=Top%2FOpinion%2FEditorials%20and%20Op-Ed%2FOp-Ed%2FColumnists%2FBob%20Herbert](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/20/opinion/20herbert.html?n=Top%2fOpinion%2fEditorials%20and%20Op%2dEd%2fOp%2dEd%2fColumnists%2fBob%20Herbert) Bob Herbert says the FDLE sent a letter to the state attorney in Orlando May 13, declaring that “It was determined that there was no basis to support the allegations of election fraud concerning these absentee ballots. Since there is no evidence of criminal misconduct involving Mayor Dyer, the Florida Department of Law Enforcement considers this matter closed.” Yet still state troopers are investigating the matter, and visiting the homes of elderly black voters to do so. A spokesman for the FDLE says the May 13 letter was “poorly worded” and meant only “that there was no evidence that it did not appear that Mayor Dyer himself was criminally involved.” And in another editorial dated today (8/23), Herbert says, > [@](#): > > The state police investigation into get-out-the-vote activities by blacks in Orlando, Fla., fits perfectly with the political aims of Gov. Jeb Bush and the Republican Party. > > The Republicans were stung in the 2000 presidential election when Al Gore became the first Democrat since 1948 to carry Orange County, of which Orlando is the hub. He could not have carried the county without the strong support of black voters, many of whom cast absentee ballots. > > The G.O.P. was stung again in 2003 when Buddy Dyer, a Democrat, was elected mayor of Orlando. He won a special election to succeed Glenda Hood, a three-term Republican who was appointed Florida secretary of state by Governor Bush. Mr. Dyer was re-elected last March. As with Mr. Gore, the black vote was an important factor. > > \ > > “A Democrat can’t win a statewide election in Florida without a high voter turnout - both at the polls and with absentee ballots - of African-Americans,” said a man who is close to the Republican establishment in Florida but asked not to be identified. “It’s no secret that the name of the game for Republicans is to restrain that turnout as much as possible. Black votes are Democratic votes, and there are a lot of them in Florida.” > > \ > > Meanwhile, the sending of state troopers into the homes of elderly black voters in Orlando was said by officials to be a response to allegations of voter fraud in last March’s mayoral election. But the investigation went forward despite findings in the spring that appeared to show that the allegations were unfounded. > > Why go forward anyway? Well, consider that the prolonged investigation dovetails exquisitely with that crucial but unspoken mission of the G.O.P. in Florida: to keep black voter turnout as low as possible. The interrogation of elderly black men and women in their homes has already frightened many voters and intimidated elderly get-out-the-vote volunteers. > > The use of state troopers to zero in on voter turnout efforts is highly unusual, if not unprecedented, in Florida. But the head of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, Guy Tunnell, who was also handpicked by Governor Bush, has been unfazed by the mounting criticism of this use of the state police. His spokesmen have said a “person of interest” in the investigation is Ezzie Thomas, a 73-year-old black man who just happens to have done very well in turning out the African-American vote. Meanwhile, according to the _Orlando Sentinel,_ six Congressional Democrats are demanding that AG Aschcroft investigate the matter: [http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/orl-locvoters20082004aug20,1,5569340.story](http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/orl-locvoters20082004aug20,1,5569340.story) (You have to register to view the story but registration is free.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2004, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-its-going-to-be-florida-again/257230/50 "2004-08-23T15:07:04Z")
Omitted the link to Herbert’s 8/23 editorial – here it is: [http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/23/opinion/23herbert.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/23/opinion/23herbert.html) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-its-going-to-be-florida-again/257230/51 "2004-08-24T01:55:09Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Why does it have to be Florida again? …this whole election could turn on Florida. You answer your own question, Sir. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-its-going-to-be-florida-again/257230.md?page=2)