# "Of course Trump fucking won! What's everyone so fucking shocked about?" - Jonathan Pie **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 25, 2017, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-trump-fucking-won-whats-everyone-so-fucking-shocked-about-jonathan-pie/778132 "2017-01-25T08:27:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Rick\_Sanchez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e19adc/32.png) [@Rick\_Sanchez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Sanchez)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-trump-fucking-won-whats-everyone-so-fucking-shocked-about-jonathan-pie/778132/241 "2017-01-30T20:00:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No, that wasn’t her “very first reaction”. [[http://www.dailydot.com/society/pycon-dongle-joke-misogyny-sexism-adria-richards/](http://www.dailydot.com/society/pycon-dongle-joke-misogyny-sexism-adria-richards/)](No, that _wasn’t_ “her very first reaction”-you might want to get [URL=“[URL=“[http://www.dailydot.com/society/pycon-dongle-joke-misogyny-sexism-adria-richards/](http://www.dailydot.com/society/pycon-dongle-joke-misogyny-sexism-adria-richards/))”]the whole story about the proper sequence on events and the crap spewn by _both_ sides.”]You might want to read the correct sequence of events and what came from _both_ sides of this incidence. I read your link, and I stand by my earlier remarks. The guy behind Richards made a dumb joke about dongles. Richards took his photo, tweeted it out to her followers, and then tweeted it to the #pycon hashtag saying _“Can someone talk to these guys about their conduct? I’m in lightning talks, top right near stage, 10 rows back.”_ When I said this was her “very first reaction”, what I meant was that this was the very first measure she took. She didn’t ask the guys to knock it off, or ask someone else to ask the guys to knock it off, or address it with them after the show privately, or get someone else to address it with them after the show privately. No. Instead the very first thing she actually did was broadcast their pictures to an audience of thousands and complained to the event organisers in such a public way that his employer decided to fire him to spare themselves any bad publicity - which is a perfectly foreseeable result of accusing someone of misogyny sexism in front of an online audience of tens of thousands. It’s worth pointing out that the joke was so incredibly tame that the guy who made it could probably have made it at his desk in front of his CEO and not suffered any repercussions. However, by choosing to utilise her substantial media presence, Richards all but guaranteed the guy would get fired - not for making the joke _per se_; the joke was very mild, after all - but for finding himself in the centre of a scene, which he wouldn’t have done if Adria Richards had even the slightest sense of proportion. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-trump-fucking-won-whats-everyone-so-fucking-shocked-about-jonathan-pie/778132/242 "2017-01-30T20:17:15Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Here’s the thing though- there are a lot of people out there who thought that all the offense and vitriol about the guy’s shirt was entirely unwarranted, ridiculous and wrong. and that he got forced to apologize for something that didn’t even warrant mention, much less a public mea culpa. > > If you look at it from that perspective, the way that situation played out was absolutely horrible- a guy wears a shirt with some sci-fi women on it, and then gets called out by a bunch of self-important harpies on the Internet, and is forced to apologize publicly for it? > > Fuck that; we can’t all run around tip-toeing about what some over-sensitive leftist might possibly be offended by, which is what the Matt Taylor story ultimately comes down to. Same thing with two guys making jokes between themselves about dongles, even if they were in _slightly_ poor taste. Shame on that woman for not having the sense to let that slide. Horrible? What hyperbolic nonsense. He was criticized and apologized. What’s horrible about that? I’m not familiar with this other instance – if it occurred as you characterized, then it is unjust. But it doesn’t sound very similar to someone who took the time to compose a reasoned criticism of a public figure for the imagery on their t-shirt. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-trump-fucking-won-whats-everyone-so-fucking-shocked-about-jonathan-pie/778132/243 "2017-01-30T20:18:47Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The problem here is that a great deal of what the self-appointed white knights of social engineering on the left call bigotry is not in fact bigotry. And then when people make this common sense observation and point it out, the response from the left is to assert what they really want is to be free to express their bigotry. And so it has gone for decades, with the result that Donald Trump sits in the White House signing executive order after executive order in an attempt to undo what you’ve wrought, and Congress, most state governorships and legislatures and the Supreme Court are now in the hands of your opponents. It’s hard to imagine a bigger clue stick that you must have been doing something wrong. So much dogma, so little substance. You should preface every post with ‘I believe…’ because none of this anti-liberal ranting has anything to do with actual fact. ‘Common sense’ doesn’t replace evidence, and the simple fact is that through this entire thread you’ve prevented none. Let me save anyone who sees a **Starving Artist** post the time by summarizing it for you: liberal bad, conservative good. There, you’re done, now you can move on to reading more substantive posts. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-trump-fucking-won-whats-everyone-so-fucking-shocked-about-jonathan-pie/778132/244 "2017-01-30T20:25:48Z")
Dangit, presented, not prevented… ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-trump-fucking-won-whats-everyone-so-fucking-shocked-about-jonathan-pie/778132/245 "2017-01-30T20:31:26Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > […] the evidence is clear that a huge portion of the electorate is fed up with political correctness Nobody’s denying that a lot of people are complaining about political correctness. They’re free to complain about it all they like. (Which btw kind of refutes your melodramatic claims that political correctness is establishing some kind of iron-curtainy “dictatorship” with everyone “bullied into compliance”. If anything like that were actually happening in the real world instead of in conservatives’ paranoid-victim fantasies, most people would be too intimidated to complain about it.) The point is that **if** conservatives are really allowing their paranoid-victim fantasies about “political correctness” to push them into voting for Trump when they don’t sincerely support Trump, they’re being silly and immature. If, on the other hand (as I tend to believe) conservatives voted for Trump because they genuinely supported Trump’s positions, then their feelings about political correctness are at best a side issue. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > > [@Kimstu](#): > > > > So, **Starving Artist** , take your pick. Either: > > > > 1. conservatives voted for Trump because they sincerely approved of Trump’s positions (which is how rational adult voters are **supposed** to decide on a candidate), or else > > > > 2. conservatives voted for Trump even though they **disapproved** of his positions, simply because they got such a gleeful hard-on for his “anti-PC” campaign persona. > > Why either? In my opinion it’s number 1 along with a healthy dose of a gleeful hard-on for his anti-PC persona from number 2. **And thus you confirm my opinion that the whole “PC” kerfuffle is essentially irrelevant, electorally speaking.** If conservatives chose to vote for Trump because they actually supported his positions, then they would have done so whether or not they were mad about “political correctness”. Any conservative who **did** base their vote crucially on being mad about “political correctness” is, as I said, silly and immature, and I give conservatives the benefit of the doubt that most of them would act more rationally than that. So what this whole thing boils down to is that a bunch of conservatives supported Trump, and at least some of them also had a gleeful hard-on for his “anti-PC” persona. So what? If that’s what conservatives get their gleeful hard-ons from, it’s no business of mine. And if they genuinely base their major electoral choices on the feelings they get from their gleeful hard-ons, then they’re too silly to bother arguing with. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-trump-fucking-won-whats-everyone-so-fucking-shocked-about-jonathan-pie/778132/246 "2017-01-30T20:37:05Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I would like to question your proof for these authoritative declarations. Would, too, if you had offered anything but your own awesomeness. As well, there appears to be a fly in the ointment. Actually, more flies than ointment. Its the math, except it isn’t math, its just arithmetic. > > For starters, we are assured that the Trump base is all about the PC, they totally hate it. But looking at his campaign by pep-rally strategy, PC anxiety is but one of many. So, are you lumping in anti-Muslim anxiety in with PC? Trade policies, PC? Because if being anti-PC was the beating heart of his appeal, why did he even bother bringing up that other stuff? If a significant number of Trump voters voted for him because of those other things, well, kinda weakens your point, don’t you think? Or don’t you? > > OK, let’s just pretend that your argument makes sense, for the moment. And Trump voters were motivated almost entirely by a raging fury at having to say “Ms.”. But his opponent got more votes. (You may have heard.) Wouldn’t that mean that more voters _approved_ of PC than disapproved? See the numbers, see how one is bigger? I’ll give you a moment to check that. Take your time, I know this stuff is hard. > > Your…ah…“argument”…if that is the word…is fatally flawed. Your punctuation, however, was spotless! _sigh_ It’s somewhat distressing, albeit mildly so, to see so much erroneous thinking couched in so much faux-intellectual condescension. However I do thank you for giving me the opportunity to, uh, elucidate my thinking on these points you’ve raised. Yes, I most certainly equate what you characterize as ‘anti-Muslim’ anxiety but which is actually ‘anti-Muslim _terrorist_’ anxiety with political correctness. Same with trade policies, the environment, economics, or pretty much any areas where the left has staked out a position. This is because political correctness dominates the left’s side of the debate over every one of these issues. If one believes that environmental issues are overly complex and restrictive and ultimately do the country more harm than good, the left will condemn him as being ‘anti-environment’, because clearly whatever the left has been able to accomplish in this regard is beyond reproach and may be challenged only out of dastardly motive, or in this case by somebody who supposedly has an active dislike for or opposition to the environment itself. Or take take issues of trade, taxes and economics, where either stupidity, racism, selfishness or greed are the only reason any politician would want to oppose liberal positions on such issues. Same with questions regarding welfare, where absolutely no credence is given whatever to concerns that so-called social safety nets actually create an underclass of people mired in the misery of a life spent merely existing and dependent on the government even for that (and not so coincidentally more inclined to vote Democrat, btw). No, to hear the left tell it, objections to welfare and other income redistribution schemes are motivated solely by selfishness and a callous disregard for those who are less fortunate. In fact, I can’t think of a single area of political disagreement where the left doesn’t attempt to portray its opposition as being driven by stupid, selfish, racist, sexist, or blatantly evil-for-its-own-sake motives. And that, my friend, is political correctness in a nutshell. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-trump-fucking-won-whats-everyone-so-fucking-shocked-about-jonathan-pie/778132/247 "2017-01-30T20:42:03Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > _sigh_ > > It’s somewhat distressing, albeit mildly so, to see so much erroneous thinking couched in so much faux-intellectual condescension. However I do thank you for giving me the opportunity to, uh, elucidate my thinking on these points you’ve raised. Yes, I most certainly equate what you characterize as ‘anti-Muslim’ anxiety but which is actually ‘anti-Muslim _terrorist_’ anxiety with political correctness. Same with trade policies, the environment, economics, or pretty much any areas where the left has staked out a position. This is because political correctness dominates the left’s side of the debate over every one of these issues. If one believes that environmental issues are overly complex and restrictive and ultimately do the country more harm than good, the left will condemn him as being ‘anti-environment’, because clearly whatever the left has been able to accomplish in this regard is beyond reproach and may be challenged only out of dastardly motive, or in this case by somebody who supposedly has an active dislike for or opposition to the environment itself. > > Or take take issues of trade, taxes and economics, where either stupidity, racism, selfishness or greed are the only reason any politician would want to oppose liberal positions on such issues. Same with questions regarding welfare, where absolutely no credence is given whatever to concerns that so-called social safety nets actually create an underclass of people mired in the misery of a life spent merely existing and dependent on the government even for that (and not so coincidentally more inclined to vote Democrat, btw). No, to hear the left tell it, objections to welfare and other income redistribution schemes are motivated solely by selfishness and a callous disregard for those who are less fortunate. > > In fact, I can’t think of a single area of political disagreement where the left doesn’t attempt to portray its opposition as being driven by stupid, selfish, racist, sexist, or blatantly evil-for-its-own-sake motives. And that, my friend, is political correctness in a nutshell. Once again you’re describing the fantasy left from talk radio, or a very small percentage of real world liberals. Do you really think that the vast majority of liberals are unkind, dishonest, foolish, or otherwise deficient, as this post suggests – or is it possible that, just like conservatives, most liberals are decent people who reach their political positions honestly and reasonably based on very different personal life experiences from that of conservatives? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-trump-fucking-won-whats-everyone-so-fucking-shocked-about-jonathan-pie/778132/248 "2017-01-30T20:45:27Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > The point is that **if** conservatives are really allowing their paranoid-victim fantasies about “political correctness” to push them into voting for Trump when they don’t sincerely support Trump, they’re being silly and immature. They also exist merely in your own mind. I’ve told you before that most of Trump’s voters who’ve been energized over the years to oppose political correctness have eagerly jumped onto Trump’s bandwagon rather than being reluctantly pulled aboard against their will or better judgement. I realize how central such a notion is to your efforts to convince yourself that no one truly supports Trump and therefore your desire to keep pouring fuel on the fire is merited, but the simple fact is that it has no basis in reality whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-trump-fucking-won-whats-everyone-so-fucking-shocked-about-jonathan-pie/778132/249 "2017-01-30T20:48:20Z")
> [@Rick\_Sanchez](#): > > > [@Kimstu](#): > > > > I find it very hard to believe that significant numbers of conservatives really felt threatened enough by that kind of pop-culture buzz to vote for Trump on account of it if they were otherwise opposed to Trump. That would be a ridiculously extreme overreaction. > > As I understand it, I don’t think that’s Novelty Bobble’s position. As I keep saying, I haven’t claimed that that **is** **Novelty Bobble** ’s position. What I claim is that it makes **Novelty Bobble** ’s position essentially an irrelevant quibble. [QUOTE=Rick Sanchez] As I read it, he’s arguing that such concern over “social media dustups” may be a deciding factor for voters who aren’t committed to Trump _or_ Clinton. […] If you truly think you’re screwed no matter who wins, it doesn’t take much to tip the balance away from one candidate and towards another. [/quote] But as I keep saying, casting one’s vote on the basis of such trivial resentments is silly and immature. Neither liberals nor anybody else should be trying to appease that kind of whimsical tantrum-throwing. What we need electorally is more attention to **serious** issues, not empty PR initiatives to coddle the feelings of voters too frivolous or ill-informed to be able to tell the difference between Clinton and Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-trump-fucking-won-whats-everyone-so-fucking-shocked-about-jonathan-pie/778132/250 "2017-01-30T20:49:16Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > They also exist merely in your own mind. I’ve told you before that most of Trump’s voters who’ve been energized over the years to oppose political correctness have eagerly jumped onto Trump’s bandwagon rather than being reluctantly pulled aboard against their will or better judgement. I realize how central such a notion is to your efforts to convince yourself that no one truly supports Trump and therefore your desire to keep pouring fuel on the fire is merited, but the simple fact is that it has no basis in reality whatsoever. So, your theory is that people voted for perhaps the worst president in the history of the United States simply because they were upset about political correctness? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-trump-fucking-won-whats-everyone-so-fucking-shocked-about-jonathan-pie/778132/251 "2017-01-30T20:59:35Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Once again you’re describing the fantasy left from talk radio, or a very small percentage of real world liberals. > > Do you really think that the vast majority of liberals are unkind, dishonest, foolish, or otherwise deficient, as this post suggests – or is it possible that, just like conservatives, most liberals are decent people who reach their political positions honestly and reasonably based on very different personal life experiences from that of conservatives? The ones I’m describing are the ones who drive the national dialog and who either succeed or fail in accomplishing liberal orthodoxy. And given that the only people on the left who speak out in opposition to it are pretty much ignored, it isn’t much of a stretch to consider that everyday liberals who most would consider to be good people are nevertheless fine with these tactics. They’re sort of like the ‘good’ Muslims who would never saw the heads off babies or commit suicide bombings themselves, but who nevertheless understand and at least somewhat sympathize with the motivations of those who do. The fact that there are good liberals out there doesn’t detract from the fact that they allow those who are the problem to behave as they do and to represent them without opposition or condemnation. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-trump-fucking-won-whats-everyone-so-fucking-shocked-about-jonathan-pie/778132/252 "2017-01-30T21:01:25Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I’ve told you before that most of Trump’s voters who’ve been energized over the years to oppose political correctness have eagerly jumped onto Trump’s bandwagon rather than being reluctantly pulled aboard against their will or better judgement. I realize how central such a notion is to your efforts to convince yourself that no one truly supports Trump Actually, I’m the one who’s been opining all along that the reason conservatives voted for Trump is that they **do** truly support Trump’s positions. I have no problem at all recognizing that. You’re the one who’s been trying to argue that something as silly as “political correctness” controversies somehow crucially tipped the balance for Trump, irrespective of support for his actual positions. Once again, **Starving Artist** , you can’t have it both ways. If conservative support for Trump is not predicated on their hatred for “PC”, then all your concern trolling here about how liberals are fatally sabotaging their own cause by promoting “PC” is irrelevant. On the other hand, if conservative support for Trump **is** crucially based on their hatred for “PC”, then they’re being feckless idiots to prioritize that over so many so much more important issues. I don’t waste my time tailoring my remarks to coddle the over-fragile sensibilities of feckless idiots. (Which, one might argue, is in fact very un-“PC” of me, so all your concern about my excessive “PC” was unnecessary anyway, right?) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-trump-fucking-won-whats-everyone-so-fucking-shocked-about-jonathan-pie/778132/253 "2017-01-30T21:12:41Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The ones I’m describing are the ones who drive the national dialog and who either succeed or fail in accomplishing liberal orthodoxy. And given that the only people on the left who speak out in opposition to it are pretty much ignored, it isn’t much of a stretch to consider that everyday liberals who most would consider to be good people are nevertheless fine with these tactics. They’re sort of like the ‘good’ Muslims who would never saw the heads off babies or commit suicide bombings themselves, but who nevertheless understand and at least somewhat sympathize with the motivations of those who do. The fact that there are good liberals out there doesn’t detract from the fact that they allow those who are the problem to behave as they do and to represent them without opposition or condemnation. This doesn’t match at all the actual liberals, like Obama, Warren, or Sanders, who drove our dialog. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-trump-fucking-won-whats-everyone-so-fucking-shocked-about-jonathan-pie/778132/254 "2017-01-30T21:14:56Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > …if conservative support for Trump is crucially based on their hatred for “PC”, then they’re being feckless idiots to prioritize that over so many so much more important issues. As I’ve said already, concern over the effects of political correctness goes to the very issue of freedom itself and whether we want to continue to live freely as the founders of the country intended, or whether we want to live by the dictates of political correctness and therefore live lives ever vigilant that we not express non-PC-approved words, thoughts or beliefs, lest we pay the price in lost careers and public excoriation. Basically political correctness is a modern day witch hunt against non-believers and its purpose is to pound everyone into submission. There isn’t a greater threat to free speech and our basic right to live as we see fit than is political correctness, and it is well and truly deserving of whatever actions are necessary to see it defeated. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-trump-fucking-won-whats-everyone-so-fucking-shocked-about-jonathan-pie/778132/255 "2017-01-30T21:31:27Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > There isn’t a greater threat to free speech and our basic right to live as we see fit than is political correctness, and it is well and truly deserving of whatever actions are necessary to see it defeated. Ummm…you’re complaining about liberals actually exercising free speech. What you’re actually claiming is that free speech is a threat to free speech. You’re also claiming that Republicans elected probably the worst president in US history because they were upset about liberals exercising their right to free speech. Personally I have a higher opinion of Republicans than that, but you’re closer to them than I am. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-trump-fucking-won-whats-everyone-so-fucking-shocked-about-jonathan-pie/778132/256 "2017-01-30T21:42:02Z")
I’ve seen some pretty silly efforts to promote a turn of phrase as “PC”, kinda like someone repeats a phrase hoping it will “catch on”, like an internet meme. Others are experiments in speech, an effort to craft an alternative. No real harm in that, it either catches on, or it doesn’t. Take “Ms.” for example. That one caught on like wildfire, became part of our standard speech with remarkable speed. Why? Seems the best bet was the time was ripe for it, it did fit a need. Seems that the soft guys with the wobbly bits like it, they liked not having to refer to their marital status as if it were somehow definitive. Where’s the harm? I don’t much like being called “Sir”, but I won’t object to it. How about special adjustments to assist people disadvantaged by some condition, like blindness or being wheelchair bound? Is that “PC”? “PC” speech is usually a sincere effort by earnest people hoping to affect how we talk. It works to the extent it is adopted into the common vernacular, and fails when it doesn’t. This annoys people who are inherently uncomfortable with change, its always too soon, its always tou much trouble. The PC correct term for such persons is “conservative”. But the people at large either will, or will not, adopt it. That’s the only test of value worth mentioning here. Unless you’re an old stick-in-the-mud fuddy-duddy. Sorry, I mean “conservative”. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-trump-fucking-won-whats-everyone-so-fucking-shocked-about-jonathan-pie/778132/257 "2017-01-30T21:53:36Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > As I’ve said already, concern over the effects of political correctness goes to the very issue of freedom itself and whether we want to continue to live freely as the founders of the country intended, or whether we want to live by the dictates of political correctness and therefore live lives ever vigilant that we not express non-PC-approved words, thoughts or beliefs, lest we pay the price in lost careers and public excoriation. Translation: “Conservatives aren’t really interested in meaningfully addressing serious political issues as much as in posturing about how heroic they are for complaining about liberals making a fuss over racial slurs on Twitter.” (Mind you, _I_ don’t believe that conservatives in general are such feckless idiots as that, but you seem to be working very hard to maintain that they are.) Stripping this effusion of its whiny hyperbole again, the fact is that American public discourse is much freer today than “the founders of the country intended”. Try saying something uncomplimentary to the Deity under early American blasphemy laws and you’d see what “public excoriation” **really** looks like. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-trump-fucking-won-whats-everyone-so-fucking-shocked-about-jonathan-pie/778132/258 "2017-01-30T22:36:02Z")
> [@Rick\_Sanchez](#): > > I disagree. The debating tactics of the hard left have a chilling effect on freedom of speech. I witnessed this first hand during Brexit. The liberal commentariat, exemplified by writers at publications like The Independent, The Guardian, and The New Statesman, collectively wrote countless thousands of words excoriating the Brexit campaign - and, by extension, its supporters - as shamefully racist. Comparatively, they spent next to no effort explaining to people why staying in the EU was a good idea. Fishermen in Grimsby who had seen their livelihoods decimated by EU regulations were excoriated as bigots by privately educated opinion columnists who wouldn’t set foot on a trawler at gunpoint. People who were concerned about NHS funding, and who believed that leaving the EU would allow the government to divert more funds to the NHS weren’t only stealth bigots and racists, they were idiots as well. Sovereignty was just a dogwhistle codeword for racism. We had months of this in England. It was exhausting, and it was simply safer for people on the right to keep their intention to vote Leave a secret. Why waste precious time and energy defending yourself from spurious accusations of bigotry when you can just lie about your beliefs until you get in the voting booth? This is why the Brexit polls were so wrong, just as the General Election polls were wrong before that, and just as the US election polls were wrong back in November. If you doubt this chilling effect exists, why were these polls so consistently wrong, and always in the same direction? The critical point here of course is that the Brexit polls were \*\*not \*\*consistently wrong - in the final couple of weeks the polls were pointing towards a Brexit win. Which is one reason to doubt this chilling effect. The General Election polls were inaccurate in favour of Labour, but post-mortem studies have shown that is much more due to poor sampling by the pollsters than to shy Tories. So that’s two reasons. However, I’m interested in the mechanism by which this chilling effect takes place. You’re proposing that the liberal commentariat write thousands of words in the Guardian, Independent and New Statesmen excoriating Leave voters as racist, and that Grimsby fishermen read these words and feel insulted. So to back this mechanism up, I would like to see: a) Quotes from a selection of articles from these publications saying that Leave voters are racist idiots. b) A breakdown of how many Grimsby fishermen read the Guardian, Independent and New Statesman. Spoiler alert: the answer to b) is “Pretty much none of them”. Which is a poor reflection on the Guardian et al. no doubt. But given that, how did they come to learn that the liberal commentariat thought they were idiot racists? My answer to the above is that they learned it from their actual news sources. News sources which had their own opinions about Brexit, and were perhaps not , when discussing the pro-Remain camp, above painting them in a bad light. In other words, the apparently common belief that you couldn’t speak your mind about Brexit without being shrieked down by frothing liberal is 99% manufactured agit-prop bullshit pushed by the pro-Leave camp to create a factitious sense of victimhood among readers, the better to entice their votes. At this point, it’s worth noting that “Leave voters are all racist idiots” stands as the hallmark of the death of respectful debate, whereas “Remain voters are patronising, arrogant ivory tower liberals” is just a plain statement of obvious fact. Apparently. And it might be worth asking (again), while we weep for the Grimsby fishermen who couldn’t leaf through the Guardian letters page without being labelled bigots, what response Remain-leaning voters in strongly Leave areas got when they raised their voices. An invitation to further civilised debate? Or might they have been told that they obviously hated democracy and Britain? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-trump-fucking-won-whats-everyone-so-fucking-shocked-about-jonathan-pie/778132/259 "2017-01-30T23:19:04Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Keep it up all you want, and try to marginalize my comments as whining all you want, but but the evidence is clear that a huge portion of the electorate is fed up with political correctness and the orgy of bullying and close minded offense-finding that it’s been engaging in. Even your own political compatriots are trying to wise you up about it and their words are falling on deaf ears. So go ahead, keep it up. In the meantime leftist politics is on the run everywhere it’s managed to gain prominence, whether here in the U.S., where conservatives hold all the reins of power, or in England with the Torys and Brexit, or to the many other areas of western Europe where liberalism and political correctness has worn out its welcome. The fact you can’t see all this is typical, and it’s largely what has brought you to this state of affairs to begin with. So, hooray for my side I guess, as it’ll be the one benefitting from your insistence on shooting yourselves in the foot over and over and over again. Honestly, the only case you’ve made in this thread is that the right has far better and more effective propagandists than the left. Case in point: > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The ones I’m describing are the ones who drive the national dialog and who either succeed or fail in accomplishing liberal orthodoxy. Claire Landsbaum “drives the national dialog”? And if you just said “who?”, _that’s my point_. Claire Landsbaum is the NYMag columnist who got on Steve Martin’s case about his eulogy. You know, that thing you found so disturbing. Never mind Obama, or Clinton, or Sanders, or Warren… Nah, it’s a handful of random twitter tards who are “driving the national dialogue”. And not the swarm of trolls that hang on Milo’s every word and will gladly drive celebrities they don’t like off twitter, or the fucking gamergate crew who continue to make video game design an _incredibly_ hostile space towards essentially anyone who isn’t a white man, but rather a handful of social justice warriors who push things too far. The only thing you have consistently shown throughout this thread is that the right wing is _really really good_ at propaganda. That they are _amazing_ at painting something innocuous and otherwise quite positive as though it was the worst thing in the world based on a few bad apples, and putting themselves in the position where they can defend us from the _horrible evils_ of things like a movement to end the systemic racism in the US justice system, attempts to get people to be less shitty towards minorities and women, or the call for more varied representation in video games. And you know what? We knew that already. We knew full well that the right wing is willing to be _incredibly_ dishonest about virtually everything, and we knew full well that a massive chunk of the American electorate is gullible enough to fall for it. Got any useful suggestions on how to deal with _that_ problem? > [@](#): > > And given that the only people on the left who speak out in opposition to it are pretty much ignored, it isn’t much of a stretch to consider that everyday liberals who most would consider to be good people are nevertheless fine with these tactics. They’re sort of like the ‘good’ Muslims who would never saw the heads off babies or commit suicide bombings themselves, but who nevertheless understand and at least somewhat sympathize with the motivations of those who do. The fact that there are good liberals out there doesn’t detract from the fact that they allow those who are the problem to behave as they do and to represent them without opposition or condemnation. “PC politics is like the iron curtain!” “Liberals who refuse to reject PC posturing are just like Muslims who sympathize with terrorists!” Dude. _Dude_. Perspective. It’s a thing. And never mind that you are _once again_ demanding that we police our own side while making absolutely no attempt to police your own, _far far far more noxious_ side. Where were you during Gamergate? Where were you during the rallies? I’ll tell you what. Once you demonstrate that you’ve gone around calling out the people shouting “TRUMP THAT BITCH” for their sexism, or calling out Rush Limbaugh for being a lying sack of pig shit, or calling out Sean Hannity for being a lying sack of pig shit, or doing _any_ kind of policing of your own side… _Then_ you can come here and complain about the fact that in your _utterly baseless_ opinion, not enough liberals stand up against the cases where political correctness crosses the line and becomes harmful. Until then, maybe you should worry about your own house. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The problem here is that a great deal of what the self-appointed white knights of social engineering on the left call bigotry is not in fact bigotry. And then when people make this common sense observation and point it out, the response from the left is to assert what they really want is to be free to express their bigotry. And so it has gone for decades, with the result that Donald Trump sits in the White House signing executive order after executive order in an attempt to undo what you’ve wrought, and Congress, most state governorships and legislatures and the Supreme Court are now in the hands of your opponents. It’s hard to imagine a bigger clue stick that you must have been doing something wrong. I find it incredibly telling that given all the posts I make in this thread directly addressing your central thesis, _this_ is the one you deem worthy of response. Nice. Y’wanna try something a little more substantive? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-trump-fucking-won-whats-everyone-so-fucking-shocked-about-jonathan-pie/778132/260 "2017-01-30T23:33:19Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Ummm…you’re complaining about liberals actually exercising free speech. What you’re actually claiming is that free speech is a threat to free speech. > > You’re also claiming that Republicans elected probably the worst president in US history because they were upset about liberals exercising their right to free speech. Personally I have a higher opinion of Republicans than that, but you’re closer to them than I am. No. That’s not the complaint. The complaint is beatings, calling for the rape of the first lady, arson, and vandalism are a threat to free speech. And these are events the left uses to silence and intimidate those they disagree with. All the imaginary violence the left is worried about the left engages in. Sad. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-trump-fucking-won-whats-everyone-so-fucking-shocked-about-jonathan-pie/778132.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-trump-fucking-won-whats-everyone-so-fucking-shocked-about-jonathan-pie/778132.md?page=14)