# "Of course Trump fucking won! What's everyone so fucking shocked about?" - Jonathan Pie **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 25, 2017, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-trump-fucking-won-whats-everyone-so-fucking-shocked-about-jonathan-pie/778132 "2017-01-25T08:27:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 5\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-trump-fucking-won-whats-everyone-so-fucking-shocked-about-jonathan-pie/778132/301 "2017-02-01T01:49:21Z")
Keep in mind, his use of the word “betrayal” is dramatic and poetic, there are no plans to bring any charges. Yet. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-trump-fucking-won-whats-everyone-so-fucking-shocked-about-jonathan-pie/778132/302 "2017-02-01T02:39:41Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Why stop there? Let’s have folks like Rosie O’Donnell and Meryl Streep sue Trump directly. Are the things the press is saying about Donald Trump worse than what Trump said about Sally Yates? And speaking of ‘hoist by your own petard…’ “If you could get that guy, that would be beautiful.” (Slightly modified quote of one of my favorite political movies.) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-trump-fucking-won-whats-everyone-so-fucking-shocked-about-jonathan-pie/778132/303 "2017-02-01T02:41:03Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Keep in mind, his use of the word “betrayal” is dramatic and poetic, there are no plans to bring any charges. Yet. Slander in accusing her of collusion with some Democrat conspiracy, however, _is_ actionable. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-trump-fucking-won-whats-everyone-so-fucking-shocked-about-jonathan-pie/778132/304 "2017-02-01T09:46:50Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > I have no idea how often it happens and have little interest in finding out numbers. I kinda do. It would also interest me how often, say, a person was driven away from their job by right-wing trolling. Because we all heard about Tim Hunt. We all heard about that one woman who made an off-color AIDS joke and then got off a plane to learn that she had become headline news. Some of us heard about donglegate. I wonder how many of us who heard about donglegate knew that Ms. Richards also lost her job. And that people DDOS’d her place of work. And that she received numerous death and rape threats. The issue is a matter of _perspective_. You wanna bet that back in the day, people never got fired from their jobs because they said or did something that made them a social pariah in their locality or made their company look bad for hiring them? Did they fuck. Hell, you can still get fired for _being gay_ in more than half the country. It’s just that social media makes it a little easier for any incredibly stupid thing you say to be heard by anyone listening in. But let’s not act like we’re dealing with some epidemic of “PC took my job” when what we’re really looking at is a handful of high-profile cases that really aren’t that important in the big picture. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Well, there’s muzzling, and then there’s muzzling. You people make it sound like Trump’s going to muzzle the press through presidential fiat when in reality he was talking about opening up libel laws so as to make news outlets report things more honestly and responsibly or else face challenge by lawsuit. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. I’ve long thought it ridiculous on the face of it that the media can report anything it wants about anyone and be shielded by law and permitted by law to get away with it. This is one thing that Hollywood should be foursquare behind because celebrities come in for the worst of this kind of abuse. If news organizations don’t have enough faith in the veracity of the things they’re reporting to believe they would stand up to challenge in a court of law then they shouldn’t be reporting them in the first place. Leaving aside the absurd hypocrisy of on one hand complaining day and night about how awful “PC” is and how much of a chilling effect it has on speech, while on the other side applauding attempts to make it easier to sue the media for libel… …Actually no, let’s not leave that aside, that’s absurdly hypocritical. I can scold and chide all I fucking want, but at the end of the day, if your boss is behind you, a few thousand people on twitter, no matter how angry, hold no actual power over you until they start breaking the law (just ask [David Gorski](https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-price-of-skepticism/)). Meanwhile, libel laws are already at a point where it’s entirely possible for the wealthy and powerful to attempt to destroy a news outlet they don’t like [based entirely on spurious claims](http://www.motherjones.com/media/2015/10/mother-jones-vandersloot-melaleuca-lawsuit). Trump himself [has a long and storied history of SLAPP lawsuits](http://www.medialaw.org/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=3470). This has a real and chilling effect on free speech and the media. And now add to that [the willingness of billionaires to go after “proxy lawsuits”](http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/08/peter-thiels-foundation-funds-a-start-up-to-bet-on-other-lawsuits), and the end result is extremely chilling towards free speech. Not just of the individual, but of the media as a whole. But no, we should be really, _really_ worried about TransChick420 (dot tumblr dot com) calling you a bigot because you referred to them as “she” and that’s not her preferred pronoun set. :rolleyes: > [@Theodore\_Striker](#): > > Hillary was a terrible candidate. She did nothing to speak to the lower middle class and the working poor other than spout rhetoric. This is just factually untrue. Trump had nothing but rhetoric. Clinton had actual plans that may very well have worked. You probably didn’t hear about those plans, because the media was too busy chasing her goddamn email server, but they existed, and they actually were there to hold up to scrutiny if anyone cared to. > [@](#): > > There are a couple of lessons from this election, and the party who listens and adapts will be better off because of it. First, people don’t like politicians. They want outsiders who will make things happen, who will shake things up. This is a fucking terrible lesson to have to take from an election. It’s like if everyone in your neighborhood had to vote on who was going to cook the town hall Christmas dinner, and people said, "Well, okay, we’ve got a 3-star chef living here, but fuck him, we don’t want a chef, we want Jimmy the garbage collector. Politics is hard, complex work that requires a specific skill set. People who don’t like politicians are people who don’t want the job done by qualified, intelligent individuals. I’m not saying you’re wrong, but this is a failure of America, not a failure on the part of the politicians. > [@](#): > > Second, they want to be listened to, not talked to. They want to be told how the government can help them, not what the government thinks is best for them. Ever heard of Clinton’s “listening tours”? The first thing she does in a campaign is go out and listen to people. Not to speak, but to find out what people’s problems are, and listen to what is bothering them so that she can draft policy to address those concerns. And how, exactly, did Trump “listen”? I think one of two things happened here. Either this point is wrong, or Americans were fast asleep for most of the election. I’d call it a toss-up, personally. > [@](#): > > Third, candidates have to be able to relate. I despise Trump, but I’d rather sit down and have a cup of coffee with him than I would Hillary, because he comes across as a real person, whether he actually is, or not. I would have felt this more with Sanders or Biden as well. Like the first point, this is a terrible metric of a functional politician. I’d much sooner sit down and have a beer with the Jackass crew than Angela Merkel. That doesn’t mean that Steve-O would be a better candidate for high political office. There’s also a bit of an issue about being “likeable” when it comes to female politicians. [http://bust.com/feminism/17225-hillary-clinton-likable.html](http://bust.com/feminism/17225-hillary-clinton-likable.html) Again, not saying you’re wrong, it’s just… Fuck man, America is _fucked_. You couldn’t get the majority of white middle-class women to vote against the guy who bragged about committing sexual assault. ---
**Author:** ![Theodore\_Striker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Theodore\_Striker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theodore_Striker)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-trump-fucking-won-whats-everyone-so-fucking-shocked-about-jonathan-pie/778132/305 "2017-02-01T14:35:42Z")
This is just factually untrue. Trump had nothing but rhetoric. Clinton had actual plans that may very well have worked. You probably didn’t hear about those plans, because the media was too busy chasing her goddamn email server, but they existed, and they actually were there to hold up to scrutiny if anyone cared to. This is a fucking terrible lesson to have to take from an election. It’s like if everyone in your neighborhood had to vote on who was going to cook the town hall Christmas dinner, and people said, "Well, okay, we’ve got a 3-star chef living here, but fuck him, we don’t want a chef, we want Jimmy the garbage collector. Politics is hard, complex work that requires a specific skill set. People who don’t like politicians are people who don’t want the job done by qualified, intelligent individuals. I’m not saying you’re wrong, but this is a failure of America, not a failure on the part of the politicians. Ever heard of Clinton’s “listening tours”? The first thing she does in a campaign is go out and listen to people. Not to speak, but to find out what people’s problems are, and listen to what is bothering them so that she can draft policy to address those concerns. And how, exactly, did Trump “listen”? I think one of two things happened here. Either this point is wrong, or Americans were fast asleep for most of the election. I’d call it a toss-up, personally. Like the first point, this is a terrible metric of a functional politician. I’d much sooner sit down and have a beer with the Jackass crew than Angela Merkel. That doesn’t mean that Steve-O would be a better candidate for high political office. There’s also a bit of an issue about being “likeable” when it comes to female politicians. > **[Don't Find Hillary Clinton 'Likable'? Here's Why](https://bust.com/feminism/17225-hillary-clinton-likable.html)** > > Here's why you don't find HIllary Clinton "likable" Again, not saying you’re wrong, it’s just… Fuck man, America is _fucked_. You couldn’t get the majority of white middle-class women to vote against the guy who bragged about committing sexual assault. [/QUOTE] BPC- I’m not saying that it’s right that people are that way, but that’s just the way it is, and the Republican party has seemed to embrace it. I personally think Clinton would have been a fantastic president. I also think that she is a HORRIBLE candidate. Many people don’t remember her plans or her listening tours, unfortunately. She may have had great plans, huge plans, that could have been bigly successful. the thing is, a lot of Americans just flat out felt that she was disconnected from them. These are not necessarily her fault, a good deal of the blame is in the marketing. I guess that is the over-arching point I’m trying to make… politicians don’t need to adapt necessarily, I want the brightest minds with the best intentions of the people working for me, and I think most people do. However, from a **marketing** perspective, the candidate and party have to be able to connect with people on the \*constituency’s \* level. They are hard lessons to swallow, because people who understand what solutions are needed, know that those solutions are complex. Unfortunately, right now, that is not an accurate representation of the voting population in the U.S., and the campaign managers, candidates, and parties have to adapt to that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-trump-fucking-won-whats-everyone-so-fucking-shocked-about-jonathan-pie/778132.md?page=15)