# 'Of course you realize, this means war.' (U.S. raids Iran consulate in Iraq) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 11, 2007, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-you-realize-this-means-war-u-s-raids-iran-consulate-in-iraq/387552 "2007-01-11T14:50:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-you-realize-this-means-war-u-s-raids-iran-consulate-in-iraq/387552/21 "2007-01-11T18:29:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Umm… is a consulate an embassy? I don’t think so. It is my understanding that a Consulate is an office in a foreign country established to promote (lobby for?) trade agreements and contracts, issue visas, assist in disputes (civil or legal) between it’s citizens and the host country, and stuff like that. The official Embassy can do all that, as well, but the official Embassy is more. It is also the official residence of the Ambassador, for example. I assume the Consulate/Consul _answers to_ the Embassy/Ambassador. In short, a Consulate is, at most, an annex to the Embassy, but not an Embassy itself. I presume that Consulates are established in countries where the workload is larger, or geographical distances make it more convenient to have these sub-offices. For example, Mexico has an Embassy in Washington DC. It also has a Consulate in San Diego (or is it L.A.?), to be closer to it’s citizens in the Southern California area that need those services. I also presume that the “rights” these consulates hold, in terms of legal/criminal jurisdictions, warrants, and such, are actually worked out in special agreements made between the two countries. So, a Consulate will hold as much, or as little, “rights”, as the host country is willing to give it. Embassy’s seem to have a little more “juice” to them, as they have become more of an international ideal and standard. That’s My Humble Opinion, subject to all the frailities typically found in the Human animal… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-you-realize-this-means-war-u-s-raids-iran-consulate-in-iraq/387552/22 "2007-01-11T18:40:29Z")
At any rate, I’m fairly certain consular staff members would have the same diplomatic immunity as embassy staff members. So if U.S. officials are detaining persons found in the Irbil consulate, that might be (or might not be, depending on who exactly those persons are) a violation of international law, quite apart from the question of extraterritoriality. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-you-realize-this-means-war-u-s-raids-iran-consulate-in-iraq/387552/23 "2007-01-11T18:56:21Z")
[QUOTE=Sapo] Details for this quote, please? That was pretty much the gist of my responses to all the 9-11 conspiracists. I am glad to hear it is an established thought. [/QUOTE] [Robert J. Hanlon - Wikiquote](http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Robert_J._Hanlon) I misquoted it. Corrected version: “Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.” ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-you-realize-this-means-war-u-s-raids-iran-consulate-in-iraq/387552/24 "2007-01-11T18:56:39Z")
[QUOTE=Sapo] Details for this quote, please? That was pretty much the gist of my responses to all the 9-11 conspiracists. I am glad to hear it is an established thought. [/QUOTE] Google it. It’s been attributed to everyone and his brother and also called [Hanlon’s razor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor) . ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-you-realize-this-means-war-u-s-raids-iran-consulate-in-iraq/387552/25 "2007-01-11T18:57:53Z")
[QUOTE=Sapo] Details for this quote, please? That was pretty much the gist of my responses to all the 9-11 conspiracists. I am glad to hear it is an established thought. [/QUOTE] Commonly attributed to Lord Acton, famous English smartass and crafter of aphorisms, most famously, “Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely”. > **[John Dalberg-Acton, 1st Baron Acton](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Acton)** > > John Emerich Edward Dalberg-Acton, 1st Baron Acton, 13th Marquess of Groppoli, KCVO DL (10 January 1834 – 19 June 1902), better known as Lord Acton, was an English Catholic historian, Liberal politician, and writer. A strong advocate for individual liberty, Acton is best known for his observation on the dangers of concentrated authority. In an 1887 letter to an Anglican bishop, he famously wrote, 'Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely', underscoring his belief that The... Until this moment, I had thought so also, but cannot find any confirmation that he ever actually said it. Jury out. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-you-realize-this-means-war-u-s-raids-iran-consulate-in-iraq/387552/26 "2007-01-11T18:59:21Z")
Goddam trigger-happy Google monkeys! ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-you-realize-this-means-war-u-s-raids-iran-consulate-in-iraq/387552/27 "2007-01-11T18:59:51Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] At any rate, I’m fairly certain consular staff members would have the same diplomatic immunity as embassy staff members. [/QUOTE] [Nope](http://www.state.gov/m/ds/immunities/c9127.htm) ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-you-realize-this-means-war-u-s-raids-iran-consulate-in-iraq/387552/28 "2007-01-11T19:07:32Z")
[QUOTE=Quartz] Umm… is a consulate an embassy? [/QUOTE] Pretty much, yeah, according to the [Vienna Convention on Consular Relations.](http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_2_1963.pdf) It’s a PDF so I’ll quote it: > [@](#): > > Article 31 > > Inviolability of the consular premises > > 1.Consular premises shall be inviolable to the extent provided in this article. > > 2.The authorities of the receiving State shall not enter that part of the consular premises which is used exclusively for the purpose of the work of the consular post except with the consent of he head of the consular post or of his designee or of the head of the diplomatic mission of the sending State. The consent of the head of the consular post may, however, be assumed in case of fire or other disaster requiring prompt protective action. > > 3.Subject to the provisions of paragraph 2 of this article, the receiving State is under a special duty to take all appropriate steps to protect the consular premises against any intrusion or damage and to prevent any disturbance of the peace of the consular post or impairment of its dignity. > > 4.The consular premises, their furnishings, the property of the consular post and its means of transport shall be immune from any form of requisition for purposes of national defence or public utility. If expropriation is necessary for such purposes, all possible steps shall be taken to avoid impeding the performance of consular functions, and prompt, adequate and effective compensation shall be paid to the sending State. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-you-realize-this-means-war-u-s-raids-iran-consulate-in-iraq/387552/29 "2007-01-11T19:11:08Z")
[QUOTE=dropzone] Pretty much, yeah, according to the [Vienna Convention on Consular Relations.](http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_2_1963.pdf) It’s a PDF so I’ll quote it: [/QUOTE] _ **mlees** wipes egg off face from presuming too much…_ ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-you-realize-this-means-war-u-s-raids-iran-consulate-in-iraq/387552/30 "2007-01-11T19:20:42Z")
And the “recieving State” is the wholly independent, sovereign nation of Iraq. Any such decision as trespass could be made only by the wholly independent, sovereign nation of Iraq. And would be carried out by the assigned agents of the wholly independent, sovereign nation of Iraq. Wouldn’t it be just simply delicious if the raid uncovered incontrovertible, “smoking gun” evidence that Ahmed Chalabi had been acting as an Iranian agent the whole time? ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-you-realize-this-means-war-u-s-raids-iran-consulate-in-iraq/387552/31 "2007-01-11T19:36:40Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Goddam trigger-happy Google monkeys! [/QUOTE] 🙂 no kidding!. Thanks to all. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-you-realize-this-means-war-u-s-raids-iran-consulate-in-iraq/387552/32 "2007-01-11T20:11:19Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Wouldn’t it be just simply delicious if the raid uncovered incontrovertible, “smoking gun” evidence that Ahmed Chalabi had been acting as an Iranian agent the whole time? [/QUOTE] If we were to actually _see_ that evidence, yes; but if there was such evidence I expect it has already been shredded and burned, to protect Bush. ---
**Author:** ![Chance\_the\_Gardener](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@Chance\_the\_Gardener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chance_the_Gardener)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-you-realize-this-means-war-u-s-raids-iran-consulate-in-iraq/387552/33 "2007-01-11T20:27:32Z")
Maybe it’s still a little too early, but I’m just dying to know how anyone’s going to be able to defend this action. To me, it just seems like the stupidest, most belligerent thing the United States could do that doesn’t involve sending troops over a border or dropping nuclear weapons. I’ve long suspected that Bush has wanted to drag Iran into this fight, and that he would naturally prefer that it look like the United States is not responsible for Iran’s participation. This, however, doesn’t look make it look like Iran’s at fault at all—but the administration’s going to try to spin it like it is. I’ll be curious to see how successful that will be with Bush’s approval ratings much lower now than they were in 2002, when he used them to attack Iraq. I wish I could say I’m surprised, but it’s been a long time since I’ve been surprised by anything that this administration is capable of. It pains me to say it about an American president (and I’ve never said it about any American president in all of my 37 years,) but I think Bush is capable of dropping a nuke on Iran or some other foreign country. If that should happen, I’ll of course be upset, angry, sad, and scared—but I won’t be surprised. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-you-realize-this-means-war-u-s-raids-iran-consulate-in-iraq/387552/34 "2007-01-11T20:41:51Z")
[This](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/11/AR2007011100427.html) article sheds, perhaps, a **little** more light on what this is all about: > [@](#): > > U.S. officials have not confirmed the raid but did say in a press release that they had taken six people into custody in Irbil during the course of “routine security operations.” The release said the individuals were “suspected of being closely tied” to attacks on Iraqi and U.S. forces. > > The incident could provide an early test of promises by Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki to enforce security laws more strictly regardless of the political or ethnic affiliation of the suspect. > > In December, the United States apprehended two men described as senior Iranian agents, in the process seizing lists of weapons and weapons shipments, organizational charts and other documents. In a decision that angered U.S. officials, the Iraqi government decided to simply expel them to Iran. > > Maliki’s Shiite government has ties to Iran and has been accused of overlooking security breeches on the part of Shiite militias and death squads. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-you-realize-this-means-war-u-s-raids-iran-consulate-in-iraq/387552/35 "2007-01-11T21:49:59Z")
“Security breeches”? Wonder where I could pick up a pair - they might come in handy in dangerous times like these. Do they come in khaki? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-you-realize-this-means-war-u-s-raids-iran-consulate-in-iraq/387552/36 "2007-01-11T21:59:46Z")
Put me in the “it’s too early to tell” camp. It seems clear that Iran is doing as much as it can to fuel the flames of chaos in Iraq. If for instance the US forces get word that people responsible for shipping weapons into Iraq are hiding out in an Iranian consulate, then I’m fine with going in and getting them. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2007, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-you-realize-this-means-war-u-s-raids-iran-consulate-in-iraq/387552/37 "2007-01-11T22:04:54Z")
[QUOTE=Debaser] Put me in the “it’s too early to tell” camp. It seems clear that Iran is doing as much as it can to fuel the flames of chaos in Iraq…QUOTE] Oh. And that information comes from, ah, unimpeachable sources? ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2007, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-you-realize-this-means-war-u-s-raids-iran-consulate-in-iraq/387552/38 "2007-01-12T13:23:01Z")
**'Luci** , do you doubt that it’s in Iran’s best interest both in terms of internal politics and street cred in other countries to see the Americans embarassed, slaughtered, and driven from Muslim lands? Or do you simply doubt they’ve been sending, as I’ve read in countless articles and books such as _Fiasco_, truckloads of weaponry for insurgent purposes? [Iraq insurgents’ bombmaking gets more lethal](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16110075/) [Iran Supplying Iraq’s Bombs?](http://www.defensetech.org/archives/001733.html) [Iran blamed for deaths of eight Britons in south Iraq](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-1813246,00.html) > [@](#): > > The new, more lethal shaped charges are behind most of the attacks that often kill several servicemembers with one blast. Eleven U.S. troops were killed on Wednesday, making it the deadliest day this year. Five of those servicemembers died in a single roadside bomb attack near Tikrit, the military said. > > U.S. officials say they have found shaped charges they believe had been constructed in machine shops outside Iraq. They say evidence suggests some of the charges are being smuggled across the Iranian border. The connection has pretty much been on the table, it would seem, for years now. These advanced shape charges go through our advanced armor like a hot knife through butter – it’s difficult to stop molten steel going mach 1. Obviously, anyone using these ties as a justification for an invasion of Iran would be a madman, since pretty much every country on Iraq’s border except Turkey has been supplying men, ammunition and fuel to the fire AFAIK and an attempted occupation of Iran would finish us. At this point I don’t know if we could stand the political backlash of even “just” bombing them. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2007, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-you-realize-this-means-war-u-s-raids-iran-consulate-in-iraq/387552/39 "2007-01-12T13:44:51Z")
What color is the sky on the administration’s planet? > [@](#): > > White House spokeswoman Dana Perino told CNN that Bush’s condemnation of what she called “Iran’s meddlesomeness” was an important signal to the region. > > “Surely the United States is not the one being threatening,” she said. “We are not the ones being meddlesome and troublesome in Iraq.” [CNN](http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/11/iraq.iran/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2007, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-you-realize-this-means-war-u-s-raids-iran-consulate-in-iraq/387552/40 "2007-01-12T14:11:34Z")
[QUOTE=mstay] **'Luci** , do you doubt that it’s in Iran’s best interest both in terms of internal politics and street cred in other countries to see the Americans embarassed, slaughtered, and driven from Muslim lands? Or do you simply doubt they’ve been sending, as I’ve read in countless articles and books such as _Fiasco_, truckloads of weaponry for insurgent purposes? [Iraq insurgents’ bombmaking gets more lethal](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16110075/) [Iran Supplying Iraq’s Bombs?](http://www.defensetech.org/archives/001733.html) [Iran blamed for deaths of eight Britons in south Iraq](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-1813246,00.html) [/QUOTE] For just one thing, I note that only one of your sources is more recent than 2005, and that that source only gives a tag-end mention of some anonymous official’s claim. As you may recall, last February, Sunni insurgents blew up the Golden Dome Mosque, a significant Shi’ite holy place. Color me skeptical that the Iranians have continued to ship explosive devices to Sunni insurgents after that incident, assuming they were before. If it were found out that they were doing so, it would cost them their close relationship with Shi’ite groups in Iraq. The Iranians expect to come out of the current chaos with an Iraq that is (a) weak, and (b) their ally. Assuming Iraq stays together; otherwise they expect the biggest piece of Iraq - the Shi’ite-dominated south and east - to be their ally. If Shi’ites find that they continue to supply explosives to the Sunnis who are trying to blow up Shi’ites as well as Americans, things might get kinda frosty there, don’t you think? Iran surely expects us to leave Iraq sooner or later. It hardly helps them to mildly hasten that if it costs them their close working relationship with Iraq’s Shi’ite groups. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-you-realize-this-means-war-u-s-raids-iran-consulate-in-iraq/387552.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-course-you-realize-this-means-war-u-s-raids-iran-consulate-in-iraq/387552.md?page=3)