# Of Heroes and Survivors **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 15, 2002, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-heroes-and-survivors/136878 "2002-11-15T14:53:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Fionn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Fionn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fionn)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-heroes-and-survivors/136878/101 "2002-11-19T17:16:24Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Suspenderzzz \* \*\* > [@](#): > > \*\*I was struggling hard to make people understand that all those angelic stereotypes don’t apply to me and never will!!! \*\* Somehow, I can’t imagine it was _that_ hard. > [@](#): > > \*\*People, broaden your horizons. First of all, change your ideas of what a woman/adult/parent/single parent should be pigeonholed in. YOu have a whole lot to learn about real people. There are many of us out here who don’t fit the stereotypes. Many conform and put their true beliefs on the backburner, because they think that it is vital in today’s world to go with the crowd or end up alone. Well, friends who only like me when I give up my true feelings and conform to their opinions just so they won’t feel threatened, can go fuck themselves. Those are not true friends. I don’t conform for anybody. \*\* I think my high-school diaries contain exactly the same sentiments. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-heroes-and-survivors/136878/102 "2002-11-19T17:35:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Suspenderzzz \* > \*\*The more you people beat up on me, the more pleased I am with myself here. \*\* Velikovsky said the same thing. He was a loon, too. ---
**Author:** ![Suspenderzzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@Suspenderzzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suspenderzzz)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-heroes-and-survivors/136878/103 "2002-11-19T17:45:54Z")
Okay, for the sake of argument let’s say I do come across more like a rebellious, idealistic teenager than some beaten-down middle-aged single mother. I’m middle-aged, but certainly not beaten down. Yet, in a sick twist, if I _were_ beaten-down, people would embrace me, whereas my controversial views and rebellion breeds fierce rejection and high-running emotions. Interesting phenomenon, but, of course, as old as the human race itself. Is it so bad not to have become a boring, conformist adult? I wish more people would keep their youthful feistiness and non-conformity instead of turning into boring, conformist sheep. I can’t relate to most people in my general age group at all, _especially_ not women! Most of my friends are younger and male, or older (aging anti-establishment types). None live the traditional married/mortgage/suburbs/soccer mom lives. Too many people, once they reach a certain age, fall into the conformist, bourgeois trap. They lose their personality, and they all act alike and talk about the same things in the same way, commisserating how “hard” life is, etc. I want _nothing_ to do with that. ---
**Author:** ![Suspenderzzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@Suspenderzzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suspenderzzz)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-heroes-and-survivors/136878/104 "2002-11-19T17:52:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by autz \* > \*\*The one that makes me so annoyed is the over use of the word “brave.” > > A prime example on CNN this morning. > > "A shark attacked a woman off the shore of a Maui resort, but she bravely swam to safety without being seriously hurt. " > > What was so BRAVE about swimming to shore after being bitten by a shark!?! One could argue that she was cowardly running for her life! > > The truth is, she was neither brave nor cowardly. SHe was just operating in survival mode. If you’re swmming in the ocean and a shark bites you, time to get the hell out of dodge. > > Brave??? Give me a break! \*\* You are right. The woman was operating in survival mode. Fight or flight in situations like this is a built-in human trait, and it kicks in without us even thinking about it. It is almost as if the brain knows instinctively what to do, and just takes over. However, this woman is a good example of a survivor. In the _correct_ sense of the word. She had a brush with death (I think being attacked by a shark would qualifiy as such), and she got away alive. She is a survivor. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-heroes-and-survivors/136878/105 "2002-11-19T18:32:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Tell me, Mr. LouisB, what makes you convinced that there is no way that I could be a single parent? Typically, having a child of one’s own causes one to mature and I see no sign of any maturation process going on with you. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-heroes-and-survivors/136878/106 "2002-11-19T21:40:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Suspenderzzz \* > **…We should say, "my hat is off to this brain surgeon…** \*\*This is FUNNY! \*\* Oh, BTW, I work 2 jobs to support a partially disabled spouse. Am I a loser because I am not afraid of hard work, or because I am choosing to honor my marriage vows (you know, that whole sickness and health part) rather than throw her out? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Suspenderzzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@Suspenderzzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suspenderzzz)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-heroes-and-survivors/136878/107 "2002-11-19T22:06:40Z")
I think that it could be in part a cultural phenomenon. There are exceptions, of course, but Americans just _loooooooooovvvvvvvve_ anything that has to do with Overcoming Adversity, or that requires Can-Do-Spirit (another expression I detest, incidentally). We (as a cuture) admire a Struggler. I don’t know if it’s the deeply ingrained pioneer spirit, the “pulling-up-by-the-bootstraps” (another…never mind, you guessed it) spirit, but I spent many years of my life in Europe, and struggling and hardship and all that bullshit aren’t admired there (as in ARE NOT!). They don’t have as much of it, because they have better social systems (but never mind, that’s an entirely different subject), but people who are not well educated and don’t have halfway decent jobs and are working themselves to death without more to show for it than just barely making ends meet and THEN be all “brave” and “heroic” about it, and “doing what they have to do” instead of getting ROYALLY PISSED OFF AND STAGE A MASS PROTEST AGAINST A SYSTEM that creates/allowes so many strugglers in the first place – those people are usually regarded as losers. But then, that’s Europe. Sorry about the run-on sentence. My passion sometimes carries me away when I get into that type if topic. ---
**Author:** ![Suspenderzzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@Suspenderzzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suspenderzzz)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-heroes-and-survivors/136878/108 "2002-11-19T22:13:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Binarydrone \* > \*\*\*\*This is FUNNY! \*\* > > Oh, BTW, I work 2 jobs to support a partially disabled spouse. Am I a loser because I am not afraid of hard work, or because I am choosing to honor my marriage vows (you know, that whole sickness and health part) rather than throw her out? :rolleyes: \*\* Well, I’d say you’re not exactly what I would tell my child to aspire to grow up to be. Sorry your life sucks so. My condolences. If it were me, I’d be outta there. (I can already see the firestorm on the horizon, but I’m just being honest. How many dreams of escape do all the strugglers secretly habor, but are too chicken to follow through on them?) ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-heroes-and-survivors/136878/109 "2002-11-19T22:20:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Suspenderzzz \* > \*\*Well, I’d say you’re not exactly what I would tell my child to aspire to grow up to be. Sorry your life sucks so. My condolences. If it were me, I’d be outta there. (I can already see the firestorm on the horizon, but I’m just being honest. How many dreams of escape do all the strugglers secretly habor, but are too chicken to follow through on them?) \*\* But, see, this is the interesting part. Not only are both of my jobs interesting and respectively fulfilling, they are also filled with good people. And my wife, I can just say that my life would be a shadow of what it is now without her in it. This is not to say that I would not love to get a whole lot more sleep than I do, but my life in no way “sucks”. I love my life, and the people that are in it and can’t think of another that I would want. So, in balance, what you seem to be saying is that you are interested in raising a child to be a brutally pragmatic, self-involved and lacking in one of the more ennobling qualities of humanity. Congratulations ---
**Author:** ![Suspenderzzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@Suspenderzzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suspenderzzz)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-heroes-and-survivors/136878/110 "2002-11-19T22:30:30Z")
As long as you truly enjoy what you are doing, you are not a struggler. If you are truly enjoying your life, you are obviously doing something right. But the way you made it sound at first, your life is 99% self-sacrifice. So I made the same false assumption that I don’t like other people to make about me: When my kid was younger and I made less money, people always just assumed that my life was one of struggle and self-sacrifice instead of the enjoyable choice that it was. That is where the condescension comes in. We attach these lables of heroism, etc. to people who are not necessarily sufferuing as much as we believe. But most people don’t refute it. They accept is as a fucking COMPLIMENT. That is part of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-heroes-and-survivors/136878/111 "2002-11-19T22:41:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Binarydrone \* > \*\* > So, in balance, what you seem to be saying is that you are interested in raising a child to be a brutally pragmatic, self-involved and lacking in one of the more ennobling qualities of humanity. Congratulations \*\* **Binarydrone** : That’s because, as a emotionally underdeveloped 15 year old, Suspenderzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz has very little social conscience. He’s not able to make the connection between “EVERYONE should abandon their responsiblities” and “My life will be worse if society collapses” Seriously, when he grows up, he’ll probably learn better. I hope. Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Typo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Typo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-heroes-and-survivors/136878/112 "2002-11-19T22:57:59Z")
**Binarydrome,** can I shake your hand? Seriously. I’m going to try not to use any of the buzzwords here (has anybody hit Bingo yet?), but I think I’m allowed to say that I respect the hell out of your attitude. **Suspenderzzz** , I can almost guarantee you that your “honesty” will ensure that no one here will consider you worthy of admiration or respect, much less the “h word”. Quite frankly, I’d been trying to keep an open mind on this whole discussion, but when you jump on a post like **Binary’s** with “I wouldn’t want my child to aspire to grow up like that” and “Sorry your life sucks,” I’m quickly losing all sympathy for you. NO ONE wants their child to aim for being a minimum-wage earner, a high school dropout, or have the challenge of a disabled spouse/child! However, if MY child were in his situation, I would be VERY PROUD to see a response such as **Binary** displayed above. Where on EARTH do you get the 99.9% sacrifice? I didn’t read that into it. He made a statement of fact without any emotional overtones of “poor me.” You’d walk out? What a remarkably mature and responsible viewpoint that shows. Escape? Isn’t that called running away? Gee, I’d bet that the admirable people on this board that are currently struggling wish their PROBLEMS would go away, but I have yet to see a “Gee, I sure wish I could leave my rotten kids behind and skip out” other than in jest. You’ve now gone on to disdain the whole “bootstrap” and American “get up and go,” or what used to be called “gumption.” Got news for you - I happen to think they’re important concepts and that we could use a lot more of it. Where do you think we’d be without it? You’re right, it IS a part of America’s idealism. We do admire it, we do talk about it, and some of us do it. I can only imagine where this will go from here. Tell me, do you not like _apple pie_, either? I will leave the rest of your post to be picked apart by those more qualified than I am. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-heroes-and-survivors/136878/113 "2002-11-19T23:10:54Z")
Are you going to do anything here but bitch and moan and apply superficial judgements to people you don’t know? ---
**Author:** ![Ferrous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Ferrous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferrous)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-heroes-and-survivors/136878/114 "2002-11-19T23:16:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Suspenderzzz \* > \*\*We attach these lables of heroism, etc. to people who are not necessarily sufferuing as much as we believe. But most people don’t refute it. They accept is as a fucking COMPLIMENT. That is part of the problem. \*\* What problem? I guess the reason “most people don’t refute it” is because most people don’t feel a need to gratuitously insult those who wish them well because they don’t like their word choice. That is to say, most people aren’t assholes. ---
**Author:** ![imthjckaz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/imthjckaz/32/3223_2.png) [@imthjckaz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/imthjckaz)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-heroes-and-survivors/136878/115 "2002-11-19T23:17:35Z")
Isn’t it time we stop feeding this troll. If she wants to go thruogh life thinking that anybody’s life, that isn’t hers, sucks, so be it. She hasn’t established any credibilty with her posts, and anyone who doesn’t (and some who do) share her opinion, then they are all wrong, in her eyes. I say, enough, go away. Please. Idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Venoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c4cdca/32.png) [@Venoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Venoma)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2002, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-heroes-and-survivors/136878/116 "2002-11-20T00:20:19Z")
Yeah, it kinda seems like it’s inventing arguments as it goes along, doesn’t it? Just one thing I want to point out. (of oh so many) > [@](#): > > Too many people, once they reach a certain age, fall into the conformist, bourgeois trap. Wanna know why honey? It’s because most of them grow up. It’s not the ‘conformist, bourgeois trap’, it’s MATURITY. Heck, I’m 22 and I think you sound more like a spoiled brat than most of my old HS classmates. Also, calling people who have a harder time at life than you do ‘losers’ shows a complete lack of compassion. Something else that comes with maturity. And one last thing - the reason noone here is bothering to refute your arguments is because by the middle of page one every last one of us could see that you have no intention of budging from your moronic POV. It would be a waste of time. So we’re all pointing and laughing instead 🙂 they say laughter promotes good health. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2002, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-heroes-and-survivors/136878/117 "2002-11-20T00:34:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Suspenderzzz \* > \*\*I don’t really think a heart surgeon is a hero, either. You misinterpret me. I was trying to juxtapose professions at both extreme ends of the spectrum to make a point. Let me make it again, maybe it got lost in all the noise: If we have reached the point as a society where we _must_ call working people “heroes” just for being, well, working people, why do we apply the label only to the lowly loser-type jobs and not to the ones that at least carry a tremendous amount of responsibility and are generally regarded as winner-type jobs? See, that’s where the condescention and patronizing comes in. That is my whole point. \*\* Now wait a minute, compare the above to the OP :wally > [@](#): > > A heart surgeon who takes the lifes of others into his hands every day, under great pressure and with skills that most of us will never aquire, also is a hero. So is a pilot, because he risks his life and the lifes of others as his normal job duty. He has tremendous responsibilities on his shoulders. Yet, with the exception of the firemen, we _never_ call these people heros. When was the last time you heard someone say, “This heart surgeon is really something. Not many could do what he does. He is a true HERO.” But all the time you hear people say things along those lines about the above cited schlepp. It is insincere. They _know_ they heart surgeon doesn’t need an ego booster, plus they are possibly envious of his success. Dear you are confusing skills with heroics. I am a very good auto mechanic. I have skills that well over 99% of the general population don’t have. This does not make me a hero, this makes me a guy with a set of skills that I took the time and training to learn. Ditto for the heart surgeon. As far as the pilot goes, the exact same comment could be made about a bus driver. A bus driver is responsible for the lives of the passengers, and again like the pilot, the bus driver will generally be the first one on the scene of any accident. The skill set (and amount of training) is slightly different for a pilot than a bus driver, but these are the only differences. The posession of a unique set of skills does not make one a hero.\*\*\*\*\* So was does make someone heroic? To me a hero is someone who does something that they don’t have to at great personal cost (Or potential cost). particulary if they are saving/helping someone else in the process. Using this (my) definition let’s look at some hero’s/ non-heros. Airline pilot- not a hero no great personal cost if he quits his job. (assuming of course he doesn’t quit it at 39K feet :)) Bus driver ditto Heart surgeon, give me a break auto mechanic same as heart surgeon Fireman Runs into the building to save a life = hero. Pro sports figure Not a hero. (except for, of course, Lance Armstrong, this guy is a hero, and a survivor) Single parent depends. If you are talking about say Prince Charles, or Rosie O’donnel the answer is an empathic no. If on the other hand you are talking about an immigrant who works two low paying jobs and saves every dime so that their children can go to school and have a better life, I would say yes. The reason is this, it would be so much easier just to give up or give in. They could go on welfare, only work one job, or jet the kid get involved in a gang. all of these would be the easy way out. Instead someone who maybe doesn’t have the greatest skill set around is busting their hump at two jobs trying to hold it all together so that their kids have a better life. working 16 hours a day plus commute time. Living day after day on just a few hours sleep, and knowing that their lot in life isn’t going to get a whole lot better, yet they keep it up, so that their kids can have a better life. Sounds like a hero to me. \*\*\*\*\* A couple of comments on the diffculity of different skills. One time when I was working at a dealership a customer came back into the shop to ask me a question. I continued to work as we talked. After watching me for a while, he commented that I had better manual dexterity than most orthopedic surgeons. This caused me to stop and ask how he knew this. It turns out that he worked for a company that makes the pins, screws, and joints and things that are installed for broken bones and joint replacements, and he has to, as part of his job, go into the OR and assist. Second comment: A few years back a friend got me an hour of bootleg time on a commercial flight simulator for a turbo-prop passenger aircraft. (Think of a 12 million dollar video game,with full motion) I got to do 4 take offs and 4 landings. Landing are harder than take offs. The first two landings were disasters. The third I think we would have survived, and the 4th I completly greased. I did well enough that the instructor complemented me on how well I did. I am not trying to toot my own horn here, just trying to point out that these skills (surgeon and pilot) aren’t that diffcult too master. Part of skills is knowledge, and I will be the first to admit that the surgeon and the pilot have a higher knowledge requirement than the auto technician and the bus driver, but since when is book learning heroic? ---
**Author:** ![LurkMeister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@LurkMeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkMeister)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2002, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-heroes-and-survivors/136878/118 "2002-11-20T00:52:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Suspenderzzz \* > \*\*Well, I’d say you’re not exactly what I would tell my child to aspire to grow up to be. Sorry your life sucks so. My condolences. If it were me, I’d be outta there. (I can already see the firestorm on the horizon, but I’m just being honest. How many dreams of escape do all the strugglers secretly habor, but are too chicken to follow through on them?) \*\* I have been following this thread for the last few days, trying to convince myself that it was some sort of drug/exhaustion induced hallucination. But this is too much. You start off complaining about the misuse of the word “hero” to describe people who don’t actually risk their lives, call people who work two jobs to support a loved one “losers” and then go on to say their situation was either the result of poor choices in their early life or a lack of ambition. That made me mad enough. But this piece of drivel is a prime example of why everyone keeps accusing you of being immature. A mature person stands by commitments, even when it’s not convenient, or pleasant, to do so. Based on what I’ve quoted above, can we safely presume that if your child ever comes down with an expensive or crippling illness you will drop him (or her) off at the nearest WalMart to fend for him(her)self, Shitforbrainzzzzzzz? ---
**Author:** ![LurkMeister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@LurkMeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkMeister)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2002, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-heroes-and-survivors/136878/119 "2002-11-20T00:56:44Z")
On the other hand, maybe you do have the right idea. In two weeks I’m taking a vacation in Vegas with a friend. Maybe I’ll just stay there, and leave my wife to figure out how to support herself on her disability check. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2002, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-heroes-and-survivors/136878/120 "2002-11-20T01:03:02Z")
Don’t do it, **LurkMeister,** we don’t want to validate this creature in any way. Personally, I hope you win a few mil and take it easy for a damn long time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-heroes-and-survivors/136878.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-heroes-and-survivors/136878.md?page=7)