Of Heroes and Survivors

I am truly interested in your definition of ‘dignity’. Now maybe I’m just a stupid schmuck, but to me dignity involves a whole lot more than one’s material lifestyle. Actually, now I think about it, it has NOTHING to do with socio-economic class.

Dignity is a state of mind and being that is not contingent upon your occupation. Dignity is making the very best of what life has dealt you, and standing proudly for your deserved right to be acknowledged as a fully paid-up member of the human race. Dignity is doing what it takes ‘to survive’, and realising that we are all interdependent beings who sometimes need others to help us on our way. Dignity is admitting our shortcomings and accepting them while still striving to better ourselves. Dignity is not measuring others by YOUR yardsticks.

And you, madam, are not behaving in a dignified manner on this board.

Grow the fuck up will ya.

Suspenderzzz, please tell me you’re not a leftist…

My God, you are a pompous windbag, Suspenderzzz.

I don’t have time to post a lengthy reply right now, but I do want to hit my main points.

  1. Suspenderzzz, I agree with you when you say that not everyone who faces hardship is a survivor or a hero. I also agree that society has become too P.C. I’m supposing that is the point you’re intending to make.

  2. If you’d like to actually convince other people of that, try dislodging your head from your ass. Your OP was rambling, incoherent and contradictory. You’ve scored zero points here on SDMB not because your opinion is unpopular, but because you presented it in an absolutely nonsensical manner. Correct me if I’m wrong, fellow posters, but Straight Dopers appreciate a well-written, sensible argument with real examples and a valid point to make. Raging on (and on and on) about some vague word that’s overused equals nothing. If you’re wondering why Dopers are accusing you of being fifteen, it’s because you sound that way. You may actually have something to say here, but after the first paragraph of your scribblings, I started skimming. When I hit your first reply that started contradicting your original stated position, I stopped caring. At worst, you’re a teenage girl who claims to understand Life ™, Why We Are Here ™, and A Human Being’s Place In The World ™, but can’t formulate a decent sentence without bad punctuation and atrocious spelling. If that’s the case, please, bake us all an angst cake and serve it up with some tears of rage. At best, you’re actually intelligent with some good points, but messy and lazy. Either way, wrong answer. Thank you for playing.

  3. God, I miss this place! I’ve been gone for entirely too long.

  4. Jurhael! This is Freeze Dried from LiveJournal! It’s about time I caught you around this seedy dive.

Ok, I know this should be a dead thread by now, but I just want to say something.

I skimmed the last page and 1/2 of this nonsense (after reading the first 1 1/2), so this opinion might have been brought up already, and if it has, I apologize.

Suspenderzzz,
I understand your initial argument, however I don’t agree with it. Your initial argument, for the most part, isn’t what’s getting people angered or offended. What pisses people off is your opinion of certain people. You don’t know, or appreciate the struggles and obstacles certain people go through to get to where they are today. I myself work at a grocery market, which I suppose would be an equivalent to working at Walmart. I’m 22 years old (no one in my life to support but myself), and that’s as far as I’ve gotten, not as if it’s bad getting “only that far” in life at any age. I’ve dealt with many obstacles including sever depression and a learning disability. I do plan to one day go back to school, but I’m trying very hard to get back on track with my life, and working hard -anywhere- is a good start. The fact is; you have no idea what it’s like for me, or anyone for that matter. You have no idea how difficult some people have it. You think you can just look at a persons life and judge them by that.

I also volunteer for the handicapped and the SPCA. I don’tconsider myself a hero for it by any means. In fact, it’s really no big deal since I have a blast doing it in the first place. The only reason why I bring it up is because it’s not as if I’m some schlepp, or a “loser”. I care. To care is, IN MY BOOK, what separates a “loser” from a “winner”. Now, you may not find that in any dictionary… perhaps in the year 2035, but that’s how I see it. When I see a person who does something noble, I don’t think of them as a loser by any means, no matter what class they’re in.

If this is truly your view of the world, I would strongly suggest that you maybe see someone (a professional) about it, or deeply consider reevaluating your own belief system. In my opinion, it can’t be healthy to think all of these people are losers, or assuming they can’t be happy where they are in life, or that they hadn’t succeeded because of the job(s) that they have. If you have to mock people by labeling them as losers, then I would seriously consider finding out WHY. I’m not trying to poke-fun at you, I’m not trying to ridicule you. I think it’s fair to say not many people share your attitude (No, not you opinion on the misuse of certain words), your attitude. It usually means you should consider wondering why people don’t share your attitude. We can’t ALL be ignorant fools, and you just happen to be the only one making any sense.

What if your children or grandchildren fall into your own “loser” category?

Hahahahahaha.

What a toad.

Suspenderzzz, what amuses me the most about this is your repeated references to having escaped the “bourgeois trap” of conformity, to thinking Outside the Box™… and yet your obvious disregard of and disrespect toward the poor and undereducated betrays you as just another middle-class NIMBY drone with too much free time at work, who uses it to simplemindedly kvetch about the horrors of “PC,” every disaffected, self-satisfied fuckhead’s lurking boogeyman. Yes, they’re coming to forcibly mutate the language and take away your guns while they’re at it. You’re so persecuted. Sweet jebus forbid you should acknowledge institutionalised social or economic inequality.

I’ve got news for you, ace. You’re not spewing anything I haven’t heard before 1,000 times, spelt better. Your opinions are not fresh, your stance not maverick. On the contrary, you’ve bought wholeheartedly into the dominant fucking paradigm of the planet, which is summarised in three simple words: Fuck The Poor. They’re losers, and it’s their own fault, right? They have to work two jobs, couldn’t go to college! Hee haw! Look how my mocking them sets me apart from the crowd!

And my god, don’t even start me on your complete misapprehension of molestation and incest. You know absolutely nothing.

You’re not a radical or a nonconformist; you’re the same old shit I’ve been scraping off my shoes for years. -smiles- I just figured after seeing this thread linked elsewhere that I’d pop in and tell you so, so that maybe you’ll give up this delusion of enlightenment and gain a little fucking self-awareness.

Welcome to the sdmb, dispassionate.

Nice first post.

Ah, people, you compliment me. Dispassionate, I am not a right-wing gun nut or anything like that. Don’t know how you could conclude that. I hate guns with a passion. This type of accusation is about the only thing that I find really insulting here.

Some of you are right about the sloppiness of certain of my posts (spelling, etc.). I am very ashamed of that. Yes, I mean it; I’m not being sarcastic. You are absolutely right. I take great pride in correct spelling and grammar, but, you see, I do this posting stuff on the side while I do other things, and sometimes I’m in a hurry. I don’t bother to proof-read, because my internet time is limited (I have a desk full of work), and if the choice is between making a point and creating a great piece of literature, I will choose the former.

I think I have finally figured out why this whole topic creates such strong reactions. I touched on that yesterday, but not in a very detailed way. It’s the culture, period. The vast majority of Americans are descended from hardship, building-something-out-of nothing, immigrant-sacrifices for their children, bootstraps, fingers worked to the bone and all that bullshit.

So, seeing these concepts attacked, naturally puts many people on the defensive. They take it personally. There is a deeper issue here, however: Those early immigrant days are behind us. If we have such a great nation, why do so many people still live such shitty lives today? In part it is our own fault (as a society at large).

Instead of getting angry and railing against the system to create more parity and fewer of these self-sacrificing heroes, we focus on the “heroes” themselves and elevate them almost to status of saint.

When I was in high school in Europe, I got an after-school job at McDonalds. I wanted to, and many of my friends did. It was to play grown-up, mainly, not for the money. My family was so fucking embarassed, because someone we know might “see” me and think that we “needed the money” or something. They would say, “people will think we are sending you to work to help support the family”. In American culture, that would be seen as somthing to be proud of, in European culture, where the struggling hero phenomenon is almost non-existent, it is an embarrassment. (Needless to say, with my rebellious spirit, I asked for extra hours at McD’s, just to spite my family who was embarrassed by my working there. LOL.)

Why do Americans cling so to elevating the struggling to saintly-hero status, instead of going a few steps further and demand that the system be altered in ways that eliminates the problem (i.e. European-style universal social safety nets)? That is where the right-wingers come in. They are so afraid of “socialism”, they block it and fuck it up every time. (Rember the Hilary/Universal healthcare scandals?) And we, as a society, have sort of resigned ourselves to the “fact” that we cannot change the system, so we place our focus on all the “heroic victims” created by said system instead.

We treat people with diseases, for example, with the same condescension. Yesterday, I came across a copy of “Rosie” magazine. Not usually my type of literature, but there it was. Let me tell you about the Letters page. The first two letters were apparently in response to a story about a cancer patient. They were short letters, combined no more than a dozen short lines. Here is the list of words/phrases that show up in it to the point of making up almost 50% of the two letters:

-most courageous picture
-her spirit and strength
-her battle
-courageously beautiful
-her burden
-an inspiration
-radiated strength
-one tough cookie

Okay. So I flip back to the front page to make sure I wasn’t really reading the “Onion” or something. But no, this shit is for real. It’s not satire.

How come in these courageous disease stories never give any credit to the doctors, btw.? Has anyone ever noticed that? You never hear anything about how the doctors worked their asses off and applied their knowledge and skills to safe the poor sap. It’s always, “oh what a survivor this one is”. As if she’d done it all by herself. Give me a fucking break.

On behalf of my sister-in-law who just died of cancer, and despite the pain she suffered and the horror of the disease died as she lived with grace, dignity, and a keen sense of humor and adventure that I found to be amazing in the courage it took (and the courage it imparted to her two young children who had to deal with “Mommy’s going to go away and not come back”), please allow me to wish you the following:

I personally hope that you get exactly the treatment you’re advocating. I hope you get a horrible, painful, debilitating, slow disease, lose your job, and any alleged loved ones desert you for the loser you are. Then I hope you get kicked out of your home and die slowly and painfully in the gutter, alone, in pain, unloved and unmourned.

Fenris

Oh yeah, baby, I’m a real ogre for what I’m “advocating”: Greater parity in society, and more all-inclusive social programs, which would eliminate the entire problem of the heroic struggler so unique to our greatestcountryintheworld (as far as developed nations go) .

By Gad, burn me at the stake! LOL! You must be a Republican, yes?

Oh, good Lord.

Look Suspenderzzz, as someone who’s had cancer, I feel that maybe, just maybe I can shed some light on this subject. However based on your past posts I’m not sure that there’s any real way to get through to you. I’d draw you a map, but I’m sure you’d be bothered by my use of the words “North” and “Equator”.

Point the first: One of your problems is that you’re reading “Rosie” magazine. But then again, I suppose Proust was out of the question.

Point the second: I personally have never felt particularly brave or heroic simply because I made it through my chemotherapy and radiation therapy. But I also recognize that many other people call me “brave” because cancer scares them. It’s a reaction to their own fears and to some extent it’s a way of supporting me in the hopes that, should they ever be in the same situation, people will be kind enough to show them the same kind of support.

I don’t get the impression that you are actually aware that you live in a world that contains other people. Perhaps this is why you are so confused by the fact that others insist on showing each other respect and support. It’s not PC. It’s simple human kindness.

Point the third: When I swallow my own modesty I’m forced to admit - there is some bravery involved in taking cancer treatment. It’s not easy to actually schedule treatments that you know will make you sick, leave you weak and cause you to spend the day vomiting and in pain. It’s even harder to show up for these appointments and go through with them. It’s scary. And doing something even when it scares you is brave. Yes, the alternative (death) is worse, but that doesn’t make it easy.

You can now flame me for tooting my own horn. I really don’t care.

Boy Superduperpooperscooperzzzzzzz, you sure are a real piece of work.

Don’t see the likes of you around here much.

At least, that is if we don’t look in the toilet.

Well, I’m one piece of shit you can’t get rid of simply by flushing. Onward and upward. LOL!

Nice that you finally identified yourself.

Yeah, you’ll clog up the bugger.

Where’s my plunger!!

Don’t know if you guys have seen it but in this thread: Ethical Dilemma, Suspenderzzz goes into some detail about their online activities. Interesting reading and, maybe, pertinent to the two pit threads they’ve got going at the moment.

Now, an important question: Why the hell are you guys feeding it? You know what they’re doing, why bother to respond?

Ah, the sacred all-Amrican values of hardship and sacrifice and everyday-heroes and suffering while building Something From Nothing. How deeply imbedded they are. We love the long-suffering. Or how do you explain cultural phenomena like something called “Queen for a Day” that was before my time, but that I’ve been told and read about. That kind of trash would never fly in Sweden. They wouldn’t have been able to find any contestants!

Queen for a Day is long gone, but the cultural attitude that created this garbage is alive and kicking. Why do we worship the strugglers? Is it guilt? Or fear that we may end up like them, and we think that by properly respecting them we will get into God’s good graces?

How amazing that even in this day and age these values are still so deeply, deeply imbedded in the American identity. Or how else to explain the abundance of defensive reactions here when someone dares to drag those sacred values through the dirt a little bit. The mind boggles.

Hear, hear!*

Carry on.***

[sub]Or is it “here, here”?* I can never remember.
**I refuse to put non-quoted punctuation in the parens, despite grammatical convention.
***And by “carry on” I of course mean “stop feeding the bugger.”[/sub]

See, cuz you couldn’t have brain surgery with a hat on, get it? Huh?
:::Crickets chirping::::smiley:

So anyway . . .

The Mariners released Jim Abbot yesterday. I’m grumpy about this.