# Of Infanticide and Abortion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 5, 2010, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695 "2010-01-05T00:07:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/221 "2010-01-08T00:49:51Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I find people like you who put more value on the lives of infants than adults highly disturbing. Except that I don’t put a higher value on infants than adults. I am not dreaming up horror scenarios to justify killing adults either. I’m equal opportunity like htat. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/222 "2010-01-08T00:50:52Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I hate the idea of a world without abortion as much as anyone. And I believe that every woman has the right to a safe and affordable abortion. No matter what. I would love to see a world without abortion. But not by force. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/223 "2010-01-08T01:22:50Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I would love to see a world without abortion. But not by force. I’d like that too because it would mean that no woman would ever need an abortion because she’d never get pregnant if she didn’t want to. In an ideal world and all that, ya know? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/224 "2010-01-08T01:49:59Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Baby blood fuels my SUV, and powers the cellphone I talk on when driving my SUV. Does anyone want my recipe for grilled infant chops with lemon pepper marinade? ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/225 "2010-01-08T04:24:52Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > You do realise that even in third world countries illegal abortions are performed by doctors. Coathangers went out of fashion. I know that in Romania under the Communists when abortion was banned, women died from illegal procedures and Romania was not the the third world by any means. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/226 "2010-01-08T04:33:09Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Except that I don’t put a higher value on infants than adults. I am not dreaming up horror scenarios to justify killing adults either. I’m equal opportunity like htat. You know, I find that hard to believe. In other threads you have offered that the rights of adults to enjoy entertainment or eating in a restaurant can be trampled over by the rights of children to be out in public. If you believe the freedom of children trample such minimal concepts as courtesy, it becomes difficult to believe you wouldn’t expect an adult to sacriface everything in a life or death situation for a child. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/227 "2010-01-08T04:40:11Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I know that in Romania under the Communists when abortion was banned, women died from illegal procedures and Romania was not the the third world by any means. Yes. But the solution is to legalize abortion, not legitimize infanticide. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/228 "2010-01-08T04:44:20Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I hate the idea of a world without abortion as much as anyone. And I believe that every woman has the right to a safe and affordable abortion. No matter what. > > But I just can’t bring myself to say that infanticide is okay. In some situations, as we’ve covered. If your society is so horrible–i.e., slavery, the Holocaust, and other situations throughout history. Or if we’re talking about some situation where a very young girl is repeatedly raped, has no idea she’s pregnant, and freaks out and kills it…I wouldn’t be OK with that situation, but I’d be more likely to understand why the person did it. But if you’ve already given birth to the kid, I can’t see why killing it is suddenly the answer. Because it’s the only weapon left to fight with. If they’ve forced you to gestate the fetus, they’ve won. They’ve gotten to use you like a brood animal. Putting the child up for adoption doesn’t solve the overpopulation problem. If anything, it potentially helps add to the ranks of the forced-birthers. Infanticide is a statement that no matter how hard they try to reduce women to brood animals, we will not be slaves to our wombs. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/229 "2010-01-08T04:50:02Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > Yes. But the solution is to legalize abortion, not legitimize infanticide. Once again from the top, this thread was started because Freudian Slit didn’t like my reponse to a previous thread in which the originator wanted to know what would happen if abortion was illegal. I responded that in that hypothetical, I would use infanticide when necessary. Naturally, I hope abortion is never illegal, but if it is I’ll be damned if I’ll let the forced birthers use my uterus. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/230 "2010-01-08T04:52:51Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Once again from the top, this thread was started because Freudian Slit didn’t like my reponse to a previous thread in which the originator wanted to know what would happen if abortion was illegal. I responded that in that hypothetical, I would use infanticide when necessary. Naturally, I hope abortion is never illegal, but if it is I’ll be damned if I’ll let the forced birthers use my uterus. That is…understandable. Disturbing, but understandable. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/231 "2010-01-08T06:12:01Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Once again from the top, this thread was started because Freudian Slit didn’t like my reponse to a previous thread in which the originator wanted to know what would happen if abortion was illegal. I responded that in that hypothetical, I would use infanticide when necessary. Naturally, I hope abortion is never illegal, but if it is I’ll be damned if I’ll let the forced birthers use my uterus. :rolleyes: Except, once you give birth, they’re no longer using your uterus. So what’s your point? Honestly, I’m starting to think this is one big joke. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/232 "2010-01-08T15:26:06Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Because it’s the only weapon left to fight with. If they’ve forced you to gestate the fetus, they’ve won. They’ve gotten to use you like a brood animal. Putting the child up for adoption doesn’t solve the overpopulation problem. If anything, it potentially helps add to the ranks of the forced-birthers. Infanticide is a statement that no matter how hard they try to reduce women to brood animals, we will not be slaves to our wombs. Heh, infanticide as a way of sending a message. That’ll show 'em! ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/233 "2010-01-08T16:36:52Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > :rolleyes: Except, once you give birth, they’re no longer using your uterus. So what’s your point? > Honestly, I’m starting to think this is one big joke. The point is refuseing to allow your body to be used as a brood machine. They can prevent you from having a safe abortion, but they still aren’t getting to use your body for their agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/234 "2010-01-08T16:39:01Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > The point is refuseing to allow your body to be used as a brood machine. They can prevent you from having a safe abortion, but they still aren’t getting to use your body for their agenda. You’re putting an agenda before a human life. I, and most sane people, find that disturbing. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/235 "2010-01-08T16:57:04Z")
But once it’s born, it’s so pointless. I get the ideology, I do. But, like **pedescribe** says, it’s disturbing. You’re just killing to make a statement. In your body, it makes sense to get rid of it. It’s fairly unadvanced, for one thing, and even later in the term, it’s using your body. But once it’s out, even though I deeply resent having ever had it inside me, I don’t think I can sanction killing it. It’s a human life, and once it’s out there, I don’t think anyone has the right to kill it. I also don’t think that the mother should be forced to care for it or pay for it. And in some hypothetical horrible war camp scenario where no one else will, I can see killing it rather than caring for it. In a more or less normal situation I don’t think the mother has the right to decide what happens to it, after it leaves the womb. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/236 "2010-01-08T17:12:53Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > The point is refuseing to allow your body to be used as a brood machine. They can prevent you from having a safe abortion, but they still aren’t getting to use your body for their agenda. In all honesty, I suspect that the approach you’ve suggested could very well be used by those who might have such an agenda. I can understand sacrificing a life, even your own life, for an agenda, if it is worthwhile enough. But really I have to think that in such a situation, the message that others could create from your act would be considerably more listened to than your own. I mean, for a message to work, the recipients must understand the point and be persuaded by it. Look at the reaction in this thread - it doesn’t appear to me as though your message is considered reasonable even by those who are nominally on your side. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/237 "2010-01-08T18:40:45Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > But once it’s born, it’s so pointless. I get the ideology, I do. But, like **pedescribe** says, it’s disturbing. You’re just killing to make a statement. In your body, it makes sense to get rid of it. It’s fairly unadvanced, for one thing, and even later in the term, it’s using your body. But once it’s out, even though I deeply resent having ever had it inside me, I don’t think I can sanction killing it. It’s a human life, and once it’s out there, I don’t think anyone has the right to kill it. > > I also don’t think that the mother should be forced to care for it or pay for it. And in some hypothetical horrible war camp scenario where no one else will, I can see killing it rather than caring for it. In a more or less normal situation I don’t think the mother has the right to decide what happens to it, after it leaves the womb. The thing with adoption is the baby is still out there consuming resources that could be used to keep someone else’s very wanted, very beloved child (the kid that we have the better chance of getting a productive, law abiding citizen out of) alive and at the lowest end of the economic strata the resources are stretched that thin that a few extra dollars can mean everything. Abandoning the baby to die of exosposure is a worse death than suffocation. Giving it to the anti-abortionists, is rewarding them for oppressing you. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/238 "2010-01-08T19:21:12Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > The thing with adoption is the baby is still out there consuming resources that could be used to keep someone else’s very wanted, very beloved child (the kid that we have the better chance of getting a productive, law abiding citizen out of) alive and at the lowest end of the economic strata the resources are stretched that thin that a few extra dollars can mean everything. Abandoning the baby to die of exosposure is a worse death than suffocation. Giving it to the anti-abortionists, is rewarding them for oppressing you. Ridiculous: [ul] [li]People who spend their time working to find a child to adopt are going to be dedicated parents. There’s a lot of work involved in adopting, before the parents ever meet the child.[/li][li]A child being adopted is a risk factor that is dwarfed by so many other things. Unless we find concrete evidence that adoption is a specific cause of problems, it is negligible.[/li][li]It costs money to adopt a child. A child who is adopted is not likely to be at the low end of the economic strata.[/li][li]If the child is put up for adoption, this will not have a direct effect on some random low-income parents with a child. The way that extra baby will have a negative effect is ONLY IF the total population growth for the region is significantly above death rates AND this causes a crisis which leads to shortages or taxes in the area. And if that’s the case, that one baby probably wouldn’t have made a difference either way.[/li][/ul] Zero Population Growth is an admirable goal. But we are not in mid-DEFCON 1 here. In fact, as I pointed out earlier, capitalist economies rely on population growth at some level. And furthermore, you need to look at the regional popluation growths and densities, and not the world’s. In most places in America, we are far from a crisis and in fact we need to avoid population loss in our current economic situation. I’m not saying that you need to have a baby. I respect your right to not have one. But the idea that drastic action needs to be taken against all these people bearing babies is grounded in naught but extrapolation of your immediate personal and social situation onto the world. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/239 "2010-01-08T22:34:17Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Once again from the top, this thread was started because Freudian Slit didn’t like my reponse to a previous thread in which the originator wanted to know what would happen if abortion was illegal. I responded that in that hypothetical, I would use infanticide when necessary. Naturally, I hope abortion is never illegal, but if it is I’ll be damned if I’ll let the forced birthers use my uterus. I think it’s important to note that that thread went into what this society might be like, and that illegal abortion doesn’t happen in a vacuum (please, feel free to take that as you sig line!). If abortion is made illegal, regular birth control is next, guaranteed. So you would be living in a society in which women have little control over their own reproduction, which would likely also have effects on their career and educational opportunities (well, more so than they do now). You would also be living in a society that doesn’t trust women to make life-changing decisions about their own bodies. It wouldn’t just be a country where everything’s the same only abortion is completely off the table. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2010, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/240 "2010-01-09T04:44:28Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > Ridiculous: > > [ul] > [li]People who spend their time working to find a child to adopt are going to be dedicated parents. There’s a lot of work involved in adopting, before the parents ever meet the child.[/li][li]A child being adopted is a risk factor that is dwarfed by so many other things. Unless we find concrete evidence that adoption is a specific cause of problems, it is negligible.[/li][li]It costs money to adopt a child. A child who is adopted is not likely to be at the low end of the economic strata.[/li][li]If the child is put up for adoption, this will not have a direct effect on some random low-income parents with a child. The way that extra baby will have a negative effect is ONLY IF the total population growth for the region is significantly above death rates AND this causes a crisis which leads to shortages or taxes in the area. And if that’s the case, that one baby probably wouldn’t have made a difference either way.[/li][/ul] > > Zero Population Growth is an admirable goal. But we are not in mid-DEFCON 1 here. In fact, as I pointed out earlier, capitalist economies rely on population growth at some level. And furthermore, you need to look at the regional popluation growths and densities, and not the world’s. In most places in America, we are far from a crisis and in fact we need to avoid population loss in our current economic situation. I’m not saying that you need to have a baby. I respect your right to not have one. But the idea that drastic action needs to be taken against all these people bearing babies is grounded in naught but extrapolation of your immediate personal and social situation onto the world. Actually adopting a “child” isn’t quite as time consuming as you think. There are actually a lot of “children” out there who need people to provide care for them who are rejected by adopters because they are considered “too old” or they are of different race or ethnicity. The people that complain that are having so much trouble adopting are having so much trouble because they only want a healthy, white infant which in my opionion is warning flag one that they would be bad parents. There are also people that claim they want to adopt, but can’t afford it. Well, not being able to afford the adoption fees, should be considered a sign that you are not in a financial situation to consider being a parent perhaps. Furthermore, children adopted into families affluent enough to afford infants will ultimately use more resources than children that remained in poor faimilies which is actually worse from an environmental standpoint. I’m far from convinced adoption is harmless. Every adoptee I’ve ever meet has been screwed up beyond belief. And yes, one extra baby can make a difference because if enough people get convinced to have that one extra baby, the result is profound disaster. People need to realize that actions have consequences. We can’t all cure cancer, but there are certain everyday actions, like not overreproducing, that each of us can do to make a better world. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695.md?page=13)