# Of Infanticide and Abortion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 5, 2010, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695 "2010-01-05T00:07:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/21 "2010-01-05T15:00:55Z")
Women should definitely have the right not to have their bodies taken over by another person. But they should not have the right to kill a separate human being who is not threatening their body. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/22 "2010-01-05T16:24:27Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Women should definitely have the right not to have their bodies taken over by another person. But they should not have the right to kill a separate human being who is not threatening their body. Agreed. Abortion and infanticide are two entirely separate issues. Abortion is always justified. Infanticide can only be justified under very extreme conditions that we are very unlikely to meet in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/23 "2010-01-05T17:33:08Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Women should definitely have the right not to have their bodies taken over by another person. But they should not have the right to kill a separate human being who is not threatening their body. I agree with you that the fetus is a person. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/24 "2010-01-05T17:37:21Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Agreed. Abortion and infanticide are two entirely separate issues. Abortion is always justified. Infanticide can only be justified under very extreme conditions that we are very unlikely to meet in the US. Yeah. As things stand now, there doesn’t seem to be any compelling reason to commit infanticide. Abortion is legal and if you do give birth you have the option of adopting it out. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/25 "2010-01-05T18:43:18Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Yeah. As things stand now, there doesn’t seem to be any compelling reason to commit infanticide. Abortion is legal and if you do give birth you have the option of adopting it out. Not necessarily, putting an unwanted baby up for adoption does not prevent the other biological parent from claiming custody and suing for child support. As you can legally shoot someone who breaks into your house to steal, I would have no qualms about killing someone who would be stealing hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars from me over the next 18 years. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/26 "2010-01-05T18:47:37Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Not wanting a child is one thing; killing a child is another. Abortion is morally okay because it is _not_ the killing of a child, it is the killing of a fetus prior to it becomming a child. > > Way I look at it is this: being forced to bear a child is no different conceptually from being thrown into a cell with some stranger’s baby. I may not want the baby, and our association is forced on me by my captors (for whatever twisted reasons of their own) - but I’d not be justified in throttling the tot. If the tot’s screaming and crying were damaging your mental health, you would probably have a good case that it was necessary throttle the tot. Also, if you believed your own life was in danger by the tot’s presence or that’s the tot’s death might facilitate your escape, you could probably get away with it. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/27 "2010-01-05T19:05:21Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > If the tot’s screaming and crying were damaging your mental health, you would probably have a good case that it was necessary throttle the tot. Where in the world do you live? Wow. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/28 "2010-01-05T19:06:52Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Not necessarily, putting an unwanted baby up for adoption does not prevent the other biological parent from claiming custody and suing for child support. As you can legally shoot someone who breaks into your house to steal, I would have no qualms about killing someone who would be stealing hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars from me over the next 18 years. Is this a joke? I’m not sure if this is a huge whoosh. But by that rationale, why can’t a man commit infanticide if a woman wants to keep a child that he never wanted? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/29 "2010-01-05T19:09:22Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > If the tot’s screaming and crying were damaging your mental health, you would probably have a good case that it was necessary throttle the tot. Not sure how to respond to this. Other than to note that murder is not normally considered an appropriate response to being annoyed by a crying baby, your own or someone elses’, whatever the circumstances. Edit: same goes for the previous post. Murder isn’t well justified by not wanting to pay child support, either. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/30 "2010-01-05T19:24:58Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Is this a joke? I’m not sure if this is a huge whoosh. But by that rationale, why can’t a man commit infanticide if a woman wants to keep a child that he never wanted? Or conversely. Would it be ok for me to kill my wife if it seemed like she was a liability? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/31 "2010-01-05T19:33:50Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Is this a joke? I’m not sure if this is a huge whoosh. But by that rationale, why can’t a man commit infanticide if a woman wants to keep a child that he never wanted? Heck, I can kill anyone who annoys me or costs me money. I think I like this plan, but the rest of you should maybe not be thrilled. I’m _easily_ annoyed. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/32 "2010-01-05T19:35:05Z")
I hate paying the nursing home fees for gramma–to the ice floes with her! ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/33 "2010-01-05T19:53:50Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Heck, I can kill anyone who annoys me or costs me money. I think I like this plan, but the rest of you should maybe not be thrilled. I’m _easily_ annoyed. 😃 You know, that sort of attitude really annoys me … 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/34 "2010-01-05T19:54:51Z")
I said “taking over your body.” The only way a fetus can be stopped from taking over the host’s body is by abortion. I’m not talking mental, financial, or any other factor. There has NEVER been a legal case where frozen embryos were implanted against the parents’ will. If life begins at conception, then some woman should be forced to carry these “people” to term against her will. I sometimes wish that every woman considering abortion would carry to term and then let the child be adopted by a gay or lesbian couple. That would certainly put a stick in the spokes of most anti-abortionists. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/35 "2010-01-05T20:14:36Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I hate paying the nursing home fees for gramma–to the ice floes with her! Welfare slackers, too - leeching off my paycheck. Dead. Of course, we are arguing over a statement from someone who (supposedly) thinks it is justifiable to kill a crying baby, so … Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/36 "2010-01-05T20:15:50Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > You know, that sort of attitude really annoys me … > > 😃 Help! Mods! I think I’ve been threatened! 😃 I still can’t find anything remotely tenable about “This kid is annoying/expensive. I get to kill it.” ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/37 "2010-01-05T20:20:40Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I still can’t find anything remotely tenable about “This kid is annoying/expensive. I get to kill it.” Well, if the crying is destracting me from playing computer games or posting on the net … I mean, I revere life and all, but there are limits! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/38 "2010-01-05T20:38:21Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > I said “taking over your body.” The only way a fetus can be stopped from taking over the host’s body is by abortion. I’m not talking mental, financial, or any other factor. What species are you familiar with? Because in humans, as well as most of the mammals I know of, the fetus just plants itself in the woman’s uterus and sits there, feeding off nutrients in the mother’s bloodstream, until it gets large enough and then the uterine walls contract and its forced out. The woman in question has to deal with the added weight, and I hear the contractions are pretty unpleasant, but the closest the fetus comes to “taking over” the woman’s body is to produce hCL (which encourages the development of estrogen and progesterone) and HPL (which decreases the woman’s insulin sensitivity, leading to more sugar in the bloodstream, and in rare cases, causing gestational diabetes). That’s hardly “taking over”. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/39 "2010-01-05T20:46:52Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > What species are you familiar with? Because in humans, as well as most of the mammals I know of, the fetus just plants itself in the woman’s uterus and sits there, feeding off nutrients in the mother’s bloodstream… > > That’s hardly “taking over”. I don’t think you and I speak the same language. There is no applicable use of “just” in that sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/40 "2010-01-05T21:11:27Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I don’t think you and I speak the same language. There is no applicable use of “just” in that sentence. Ok, let’s compare and contrast the demon Pazuzu from the movie The Exorcist with a tapeworm. The demon Pazuzu takes over little Regan’s body. It makes her attack the people around her. It makes her curse. It makes her walk like a crab. A tapeworm sits in somebody’s intestines and waits for partially digested food to pass by. Every once in a while, it drops eggs. It doesn’t take over the person’s body, and doesn’t make the person do anything he or she doesn’t want to. Now, its sitting in the intestine can negatively affect the person in whom it is living; it can cause nausea, abdominal pain, and so on, but the tapeworm doesn’t take over the person; it just sits their oblivious. That doesn’t mean that people want a tapeworm, or that if someone finds out he has a tapeworm, he won’t take anti-worm drugs to kill it, but its a fundamentally passive thing. A fetus is a lot more like a tapeworm than like the demon Pazuzu. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695.md?page=3)