# Of Infanticide and Abortion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 5, 2010, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695 "2010-01-05T00:07:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/41 "2010-01-05T21:13:27Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > What species are you familiar with? Because in humans, as well as most of the mammals I know of, the fetus just plants itself in the woman’s uterus and sits there, feeding off nutrients in the mother’s bloodstream, until it gets large enough and then the uterine walls contract and its forced out. The woman in question has to deal with the added weight, and I hear the contractions are pretty unpleasant, but the closest the fetus comes to “taking over” the woman’s body is to produce hCL (which encourages the development of estrogen and progesterone) and HPL (which decreases the woman’s insulin sensitivity, leading to more sugar in the bloodstream, and in rare cases, causing gestational diabetes). > > That’s hardly “taking over”. It does quite a bit more than that, I understand; that’s why pregnancy is so stressful. The fetus and the mother are in a constant biochemical tug of war for resources; each trying to subvert the other. One detail I recall is that the fetus ( or rather its extension, the placenta ) invading the blood vessels feeding it to destroy the vessels’ muscular layer; rendering the mother’s body incapable of controlling the blood flow there and occasionally leading to blood pressure problems. And I recall recent results that suggest that the placenta is subverting the mother’s immune system using a crippled retrovirus ( interesting if true; why the immune system doesn’t just kill the fetus is a longstanding mystery as I recall ). And even after birth, leftover fetal cells are left scattered thoughout the mother’s body, and are theorized to be the cause of autoimmune dieases. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/42 "2010-01-05T21:19:41Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Is this a joke? I’m not sure if this is a huge whoosh. But by that rationale, why can’t a man commit infanticide if a woman wants to keep a child that he never wanted? If I were sitting on jury and the case before me was one in which a man was accused of infanticide, but made it clear he never wanted a child and had asked the woman to have an abortion and she refused and was demanding child support, I would vote not guilty. Personally, I think men should have a legal option to opt out of paternity within 4-6 weeks (roughly the best window a woman has for an abortion) of being informed of a pregnancy. If he chooses to opt out he loses all legal rights and responsibilities to the possible child. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/43 "2010-01-05T21:22:19Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > If I were sitting on jury and the case before me was one in which a man was accused of infanticide, but made it clear he never wanted a child and had asked the woman to have an abortion and she refused and was demanding child support, I would vote not guilty. Personally, I think men should have a legal option to opt out of paternity within 4-6 weeks (roughly the best window a woman has for an abortion) of being informed of a pregnancy. If he chooses to opt out he loses all legal rights and responsibilities to the possible child. You really would? I think this is completely outside the issue of child support laws, which are often unfair, granted…but the answer to your mind is murder? Someone inconveniences you financially and you think you have the right to kill them? ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/44 "2010-01-05T21:23:48Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Not sure how to respond to this. Other than to note that murder is not normally considered an appropriate response to being annoyed by a crying baby, your own or someone elses’, whatever the circumstances. > > Edit: same goes for the previous post. Murder isn’t well justified by not wanting to pay child support, either. There is a level that reaches beyond annoyance. There are certain instances, a prolonged hostage situation in an enclosed space, being one of them where the options could be smother the crying the baby or risk going insane. Smother the crying baby or have it betray you to the enemy is another. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/45 "2010-01-05T21:26:49Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > You really would? I think this is completely outside the issue of child support laws, which are often unfair, granted…but the answer to your mind is murder? Someone inconveniences you financially and you think you have the right to kill them? Child support can often be more than an financial inconvenience. I know people who have lost their homes and businesses. I’m talking houses and businesses that have been in their family for generations over child support. It can completely derail graduate studies and ruin an existing good family. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/46 "2010-01-05T21:31:55Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Help! Mods! I think I’ve been threatened! 😃 > I still can’t find anything remotely tenable about “This kid is annoying/expensive. I get to kill it.” If you haven’t had sleep in more than 72 hours that’s a little more than annoying (nor is your mental state all optimistic and rosy). If paying child support means you lose the house or business you’ve worked and sacrificed for all you’re life that is a lot more than annoying. If it means derailing the career you’ve natured your talent in and worked at for ages or depriving the children you did want and did agree to bring into the world, it’s a lot more than annoying. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/47 "2010-01-05T21:35:30Z")
A woman’s skeleton reveals if she has ever given birth. Her _bones_ show it. This isn’t superficial. It’s not “just” anything. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/48 "2010-01-05T21:35:37Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I hate paying the nursing home fees for gramma–to the ice floes with her! Too bad, you owe your gramma support in her old age for what she did to nurture you (or at least your parents). She has earned it. Babies haven’t. They come it to this world with a debt they owe the generations before them. They pay back by caring for their elders. Besides, if the family really has no money, Medicaid will pay for gramma’s care, unfortunately, not as well as they should. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/49 "2010-01-05T21:37:35Z")
It may be more than annoying, but you don’t get to commit murder over it. If your parents can afford to send you to Harvard law but they don’t want to, do you get to murder them for your inheritance? If your husband/wife is having sex with someone else and has a great divorce lawyer and will take you for all you’re worth, do you get to 86 the cheating asshole? People lose out financially all the time. But you get to kill over it when the creature is non sentient? ETA: What if grandma/parents were horribly abusive? Do I get to send her to the subpar nursing home with rats? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/50 "2010-01-05T21:38:34Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > If you haven’t had sleep in more than 72 hours that’s a little more than annoying (nor is your mental state all optimistic and rosy). If paying child support means you lose the house or business you’ve worked and sacrificed for all you’re life that is a lot more than annoying. If it means derailing the career you’ve natured your talent in and worked at for ages or depriving the children you did want and did agree to bring into the world, it’s a lot more than annoying. Like I already asked, where do you live? Because you are just making up these wacky scenarios and then acting like they’re normal. OMIGOD! What if you haven’t slept in like 72 hours and what if there are BEARS and WILDEBEESTS and ALIEN MIND CONTROL RAYS. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/51 "2010-01-05T21:42:42Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Like I already asked, where do you live? > > Because you are just making up these wacky scenarios and then acting like they’re normal. > > OMIGOD! What if you haven’t slept in like 72 hours and what if there are BEARS and WILDEBEESTS and ALIEN MIND CONTROL RAYS. And…and…and…a bus! With refugees! And American military doctors! And a lady with a chicken that won’t shut up! OH NO OH MY GOD IT WAS A BAAAAAAAYBEEEEEEEE! I DIDN’T MEAN FOR HER TO KILL HER BAAAAAAAAYBEEEEEEEE! ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/52 "2010-01-05T21:44:01Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Like I already asked, where do you live? > > Because you are just making up these wacky scenarios and then acting like they’re normal. > > OMIGOD! What if you haven’t slept in like 72 hours and what if there are BEARS and WILDEBEESTS and ALIEN MIND CONTROL RAYS. Currently, I live in the Texas Gulf Coast. I have lived all over the United States, England, and the former Yugoslavia. And I don’t think these are wacky scenarios. There are plenty of real live situations where people have to make hard decisions. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/53 "2010-01-05T21:45:17Z")
New theory. **ZPG Zealot** is a pro lifer intending to make pro choicers look like pants wearing castrating bitch goddesses in the board room by day, and baby killing freaks by night. With capes. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/54 "2010-01-05T22:13:25Z")
Well, this thread took a turn for the strange. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/55 "2010-01-05T22:27:02Z")
You know Freudian Slit, I may say I think you sound naive or sheltered, but I would never infer you were anything I consider as vile as an anti-abortionist. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/56 "2010-01-05T22:37:48Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > …and now the actual killing of actual born kids is acceptable; people are still hiding it in some nice language of “self-aware” and “preventing suffering” of others. > I wonder what the “scientific” moment where infanticide becomes unacceptable will be. Sacrasm mode on “When they are born to people that don’t practice the same religion as us or have a different culture or heaven forbid expect a fair wage for a day’s work.” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/57 "2010-01-05T23:01:06Z")
How _aggressively_ is abortion banned in this hypothetical? I’d sort-of be okay with an abortion ban if the sole law enforcement agency authorized to investigate had its annual budget permanently fixed at one dollar, i.e. abortion is illegal on paper but there is absolutely no intent or interest in actually doing anything about it. ---
**Author:** ![Blut\_Aus\_Nord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Blut\_Aus\_Nord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blut_Aus_Nord)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/58 "2010-01-05T23:09:45Z")
What if you gave the child a three year test run and decided that it wasn’t working for either of you? Is murder still justified? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/59 "2010-01-05T23:12:32Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > 😕 > > No, people do not get an abortion to avoid **pregnancy** , they get an abortion to avoid **having a child**. For instance, I don’t think you’ll find a correlation with women who abort and women who adopt. Point in fact, I think you’ll find that it’s women who can’t have a child who adopt, which is the exact opposite. > > When a child is born, if you didn’t want a child, you still don’t want a child. Au contraire, a fair number of pro-choice advocates do take exactly the line that what they are after is a woman’s right to not be pregnant, and the unfortunate death of the fetus in bringing this about is a sadly inescapable consequence of the procedure. I’m further reminded of a quote from, of all things, _Priest-Kings of Gor_, where the narrator informs us that when a man of Counter-Earth saves a woman’s life, she becomes his slave - because she would not have her life if not for him, and it is therefore his to order as he sees fit. I’m sure that **ZPG Zealot** will see the justice of this. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/60 "2010-01-05T23:13:11Z")
> [@Chakra Nadmara](#): > > What if you gave the child a three year test run and decided that it wasn’t working for either of you? Is murder still justified? It’ll be called “retirement.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695.md?page=4)