# Of Infanticide and Abortion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 5, 2010, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695 "2010-01-05T00:07:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/101 "2010-01-06T14:17:59Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > There is no way of knowing if a baby is going to grow up to a long period of productivity. He or she could become a drug addict or a **serial killer** which means you will spend millions maintaining them while they will contribute nothing, but carnage and destruction. Old people who have paid their dues deserve their reward. Children have that to earn still. > > Definitely, the poster-child for what the childfree call the ‘culture of baby worship’. Bolding added–Adoption is definitely a major factor in serial killers. MANY were adopted. On one hand, the pregnant woman has an abortion, finishes school, goes on to a productive life. On the other hand, she has the child, goes on welfare, and the child(ren) ends up on welfare, as that is the way they were raised. Or she adopts the child out and spends a lifetime grieving for the child. One thing I absolutely hate about anti-abortionists is how the think a woman can go through nine months of pregnance and give the child up (and most think only to a married, religious couple) and then go on like “nothing happened.” It’s a insult to motherhood. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/102 "2010-01-06T14:24:38Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Bolding added–Adoption is definitely a major factor in serial killers. MANY were adopted. > > On one hand, the pregnant woman has an abortion, finishes school, goes on to a productive life. On the other hand, she has the child, goes on welfare, and the child(ren) ends up on welfare, as that is the way they were raised. Or she adopts the child out and spends a lifetime grieving for the child. > > One thing I absolutely hate about anti-abortionists is how the think a woman can go through nine months of pregnance and give the child up (and most think only to a married, religious couple) and then go on like “nothing happened.” It’s a insult to motherhood. I agree, too. We had another thread where a poster was all, “There are women who would forgo sex if there were no abortion.” There was definitely a, “What’s the big deal about nine months of pregnancy?” vibe. I don’t think a lot of men realize how truly horrifying being pregnant is if you don’t want to be. The loss of control over your body, the knowledge that something painful (i.e., labor) will be happening at the end, hormonal changes…and all for something you wish wasn’t there in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/103 "2010-01-06T14:32:45Z")
I’ve acutally heard a female abortion protester say “Every women regrets having an abortion. No women regrets having her child adopted.” I asked her if she thought Michelle Landers, the mother of [Lisa Steinberg](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joel_Steinberg), regretted her decision. To say that abortion is always wrong and adoption is always right is just ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/104 "2010-01-06T14:47:08Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I agree, too. We had another thread where a poster was all, “There are women who would forgo sex if there were no abortion.” There was definitely a, “What’s the big deal about nine months of pregnancy?” vibe. I don’t think a lot of men realize how truly horrifying being pregnant is if you don’t want to be. The loss of control over your body, the knowledge that something painful (i.e., labor) will be happening at the end, hormonal changes…and all for something you wish wasn’t there in the first place. Heh, I can’t speak for those fellows of course, but many guys have a true horror of lifelong celebacy. They would rather suffer many a disfiguring physical imposition rather than never have sex again - rather, literally, to lose a leg or an arm, painfully. Pregnancy has a huge and lifelong affect on a woman’s body, but it is not (unless complications ensue) as significant as losing a leg … hence, some guys have difficulty with the notion that celebacy is worth avoiding the risk of pregnancy. Not so much that pregnancy is no big deal, more that it is not as big a deal as it would take _for them_ to impose lifelong celebacy on themselves. It is simply a different rating on the relative scale of horrors. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/105 "2010-01-06T14:55:32Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Maybe it wasn’t her intention but it’s what she wrote. You knew it wasn’t her intent, but by pretending that it was you ascribe to her a viewpoint that she doesn’t have. Cheap debate trick. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/106 "2010-01-06T16:12:41Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > It’s interesting that one few of the places where infaticide is “common” is China, where abortion is more than legal and most of it happens to girls. > The only other places are those where life is always a (literal) crumb away from death. But still, even in refugee camps in Africa you don’t see mass infanticide. If those parts of Africa took more proactive steps in controlling their population, they wouldn’t be always literally a crumb away from death. It’s not the hunter-gatherers that will practice infanticide if necessary (because abortion isn’t always an option in their world) to control their population who are starving. It’s agricultural people who feel every conception must lead to a birth that can’t feed their too large families. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/107 "2010-01-06T16:15:12Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > I’ve acutally heard a female abortion protester say “Every women regrets having an abortion. No women regrets having her child adopted.” I asked her if she thought Michelle Landers, the mother of [Lisa Steinberg](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joel_Steinberg), regretted her decision. > > To say that abortion is always wrong and adoption is always right is just ridiculous. I have always wondered how the biological parents of David Berkowitz or Joel Rifkin feel? ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/108 "2010-01-06T16:18:54Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > So then we should be able to kill productive adults too. What do you think happens in war? Or in 3rd world countries that provide cheap labor? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/109 "2010-01-06T16:20:43Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Bolding added–Adoption is definitely a major factor in serial killers. MANY were adopted. Some day, it would be terrific if you would provide a cite that shows causation between the two. I seriously doubt that a child of a healthy mother who is adopted by healthy parents has any more chance of turning out to be a serial killer than anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/110 "2010-01-06T16:22:19Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Wha? **curlcoat** hasn’t posted in this thread? > **ZPGZealot** : who provides for your family when you end up in prison? It’s the risk that would have to be taken, but life if about risk. But the one thing I do know is that I could not gamble the lives of living, breathing people I know who have lives and personalities over some potential person that I have no emotional connection with and no desire to form an emotional or family relationship with. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/111 "2010-01-06T16:23:39Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Some day, it would be terrific if you would provide a cite that shows causation between the two. I seriously doubt that a child of a healthy mother who is adopted by healthy parents has any more chance of turning out to be a serial killer than anyone else. Here’s a good place to start: [http://www.adoptedkillers.com/](http://www.adoptedkillers.com/). Crime Library also discusses adoption as a factor in creating serial killers. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/112 "2010-01-06T16:25:39Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Some day, it would be terrific if you would provide a cite that shows causation between the two. I seriously doubt that a child of a healthy mother who is adopted by healthy parents has any more chance of turning out to be a serial killer than anyone else. Here’s the crime library link. [http://www.crimemagazine.com/07/adoptionforensics,0919-7.htm](http://www.crimemagazine.com/07/adoptionforensics,0919-7.htm) ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/113 "2010-01-06T16:29:19Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > It’s the risk that would have to be taken, but life if about risk. Okay, you’re kind of hilarious. Life is about risk, but you should be able to kill babies because otherwise there’s a chance your relatives might all become prostitutes. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/114 "2010-01-06T16:30:45Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Okay, you’re kind of hilarious. Life is about risk, but you should be able to kill babies because otherwise there’s a chance your relatives might all become prostitutes. They call those kinds of babies “prostitots”. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/115 "2010-01-06T16:31:13Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Here’s a good place to start: [http://www.adoptedkillers.com/](http://www.adoptedkillers.com/). Crime Library also discusses adoption as a factor in creating serial killers. A bunch of stories about adopted people who are serial killers doesn’t show causation, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/116 "2010-01-06T16:38:09Z")
Here’s a quote from the first paragraph of one of the studies from your first link: > [@](#): > > Since 1987, I have been a consultant or expert witness in 20 homicide cases in which the accused was adopted, usually as an infant, or in early childhood. In every case of these adoptees who killed, we have found a remarkably similar pattern, including a history of sealed original birth records, a childhood of secrets and lies (re: birth parents and genetic history), frustrated, blocked searches for birth parents, and untreated, festering adoption issues of loss, rejection, abandonment, identity, and dissociated (split-off) rage. Adoption itself is not the cause. The childhoods of secrets and lies, the frustrated, blocked searches for birth parents, _maybe_ those things are causation. None of that is an inherent part of adoption. That’s like saying being born causes people to be serial killers when it was really because they were abused in childhood. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/117 "2010-01-06T16:59:22Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Here’s a quote from the first paragraph of one of the studies from your first link: > > Adoption itself is not the cause. The childhoods of secrets and lies, the frustrated, blocked searches for birth parents, _maybe_ those things are causation. None of that is an inherent part of adoption. That’s like saying being born causes people to be serial killers when it was really because they were abused in childhood. Perhaps it would put the distinction between correlation and causality into perspective if it is pointed out that [homosexuality/bisexuality is also disproportionately associated with modern serial killers](http://www.adherents.com/misc/hsk.html#source), but few would list homosexuality as a cause of serial murder. Regards, Shodan PS - Hi, **Sarahfeena**! ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/118 "2010-01-06T17:13:35Z")
Here are some quotes from the case studies quoted: > [@](#): > > Between 1962 and 1966, four schoolboys were abused, tortured and killed in Germany’s Ruhr District. Their tormentor, Juergen Bartsch, was fifteen at the time of his first crime; nineteen when he was caught. His mesmerizing confession, which frames the re-enactment of his crimes and the circumstances through which they came about, forms the heart of this journey into the dark reaches of a troubled mind. Bartsch’s cold and severe adopters, his terror-filled years at a Catholic boarding school, the discovery of his sexual attraction to boys, his desperate longing to never have to grow up. > [@](#): > > Court-appointed experts testified during the guilt phase of the trial that Benefiel suffered from schizophrenic personality disorder, & from a mental disease or defect. As a baby, Benefiel�s “birth” mother gave him to an unfit mother in exchange for having a place to live. Benefiel endured a traumatic childhood including abandonment & sexual abuse by his adoptive mother�s boyfriend. > [@](#): > > His was a stepparent adoption. His father, William Frank Bowles, died in 1961 before he was born. Frances remarried several times. At age of 7 or 8, Gary began to suffer from abuse by his 1st stepfather & later by subsequent stepfathers. Around the age 10, Gary began to sniff glue & paint, as well as experiment with other drugs in an attempt to escape his unhappy situation. Eventually, Gary dropped out of school during the eighth grade. When he was 13 or 14, Gary and his brother ganged up on their stepfather and severely beat him, then left home to live on the streets. > [@](#): > > Born 1937 in Chelsea, Massachusetts, as one of six children in his family, he grew up with a warped view of both sex and violence, mainly as a result of his alcoholic father, Frank, who beat both his children and his wife. When he waS 12, his parents divorced & his father sold him and two of his sisters as slaves to a farmer in Maine who paid $9 for them all [black market adoption]. Can anyone explain to me the conclusion that the institution of adoption is to blame here, and not the abuse and mental illness? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/119 "2010-01-06T17:19:51Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Can anyone explain to me the conclusion that the institution of adoption is to blame here, and not the abuse and mental illness? This is called debate via True Crime Novel. Very spiffy. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695/120 "2010-01-06T17:27:40Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > This is called debate via True Crime Novel. Very spiffy. It’s all right…GD’s been getting a little dull, IMO. Nothing like a little sensationalism to liven things up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-infanticide-and-abortion/523695.md?page=7)