# Of kings and queens and... **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 2, 1999, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-kings-and-queens-and/2339 "1999-08-02T19:19:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 1999, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-kings-and-queens-and/2339/1 "1999-08-02T19:19:00Z")
Ok: Kings and Queens I can figure out. But how did the Jacks get into the picture? And why were spades, hearts, diamonds and clubs chosen? ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 1999, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-kings-and-queens-and/2339/2 "1999-08-02T19:50:00Z")
Check out this link: [http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1\_308.html](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_308.html) ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 1999, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-kings-and-queens-and/2339/3 "1999-08-02T22:03:00Z")
Many thanks for the thread, Dirty. Any thoughts on the Jacks? ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 1999, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-kings-and-queens-and/2339/4 "1999-08-02T22:19:00Z")
I used to have a French deck of cards. If memory serves me, the Jack was a “Valet” with a “V” in the corners. I suppose in English, “Jack” was just slang for a serving man? ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 1999, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-kings-and-queens-and/2339/5 "1999-08-02T22:41:00Z")
“Jack” used to be “knave.” Until the more popular “jack” took over. I can imagine that two 'K’s in a deck would cause some confusion, but I don’t know why “Jack” was chosen, though (maybe just an English name for a regular Joe). ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 1999, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-kings-and-queens-and/2339/6 "1999-08-02T23:38:00Z")
jti: the jack is indeed called a valet in French, which, if translated into English could become either a squire (for a knight) or equerry (for royalty). Whereas the definition I get from my Collins English Dictionary says: “one of four playing cards (…) bearing the picture of a young prince; knave”. Which would seem more logical (King, Queen, Prince) than its French equivalent. Although I’m still a bit puzzled by the equivalency jack\<=\>prince… ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 1999, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-kings-and-queens-and/2339/7 "1999-08-02T23:58:00Z")
Breakthrough! From [www.m-w.com](http://www.m-w.com) > [@](#): > > Main Entry: **1jack** > Pronunciation: 'jak > Function: noun > Etymology: **Middle English Jacke, familiar term of address to a social inferior,** nickname for Johan John > Date: 1548 > **1 a : MAN – usually used as an intensive in such phrases as every man jack b often capitalized : SAILOR c (1) : SERVANT, LABORER (2) : LUMBERJACK** > . > . > . > **6 a : a playing card carrying the figure of a soldier or servant and ranking usually below the queen** b : JACKPOT 1a(2) > 7 slang : MONEY > 8 : a female fitting in an electric circuit used with a plug to make a connection with another circuit > 9 a : APPLEJACK b : BRANDY and > [@](#): > > Main Entry: **knave** > Pronunciation: 'nAv > Function: noun > Etymology: Middle English, from Old English cnafa; akin to Old High German knabo boy > Date: before 12th century > **1 archaic a : a boy servant b : a male servant c : a man of humble birth or position** > 2 : a tricky deceitful fellow > **3 : JACK 6a** From this, we get valet=knave=jack. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 1999, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-kings-and-queens-and/2339/8 "1999-08-03T00:43:00Z")
Thanks Strainger. The “(young) prince theory” still looks more logically plausible to me, but your input at least clears up the valet=jack=knave aspect of it… ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 1999, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-kings-and-queens-and/2339/9 "1999-08-03T05:12:00Z")
Actually, **omniscientnot** I found a source earlier today stating that the original designation of the jack was indeed a knave (i.e. servant). Unfortunately, I’m having trouble relocating the URL tonight. I’ll try my search again later and provide you with any links I come up with. Basically, the “young prince” thing is an error. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 1999, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-kings-and-queens-and/2339/10 "1999-08-03T16:18:00Z")
And don’t forget that in the original Tarot deck (_n.b._ no evangelical rants, please – whatever else may or may not be true about the Tarot deck, it is unquestionably the ancestor of the 52-card deck) there is a Knight between the Queen and the Knave. And “knave” was in use in England as recently as the 1860’s – _vide Alice in Wonderland._ * * * John W. Kennedy “Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays.” – Charles Williams ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 1999, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-kings-and-queens-and/2339/11 "1999-08-04T07:34:00Z")
WAG – jacks represent the quasi-royal hangers on, sort of like Edmund in Blackadder II. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 1999, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-kings-and-queens-and/2339/12 "1999-08-05T05:20:00Z")
I forgot to mention in my earlier post: In one of the early chapters of _Great Expectations_, Esmeralda teases Pip for calling the “knaves,” “jacks.” Given their respective social standings, it may be that the upper classes used “knave”, and the lower classes used the slang, “jack.” ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 1999, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-kings-and-queens-and/2339/13 "1999-08-05T08:35:00Z")
While playing poker in Sweden I thought I had a full house, when I laid down the cards to my surprise I had 2 Jacks and a King, not the 3 Kings a thought that I had. In a Swedish deck of cards (kort lek) the Jack is shown as Kn (Knect - not sure of spelling) and the king as K (kung). You can see the problem for a first timer from America who doesn’t fan the cards.