# Of Mountain Lions and Pit Bulls **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 10, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682 "2009-01-10T17:00:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Jettboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@Jettboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jettboy)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/41 "2009-01-11T02:55:52Z")
> [@Trocisp](#): > > It’s funny what the statistics show when you actually bother to look them up, rather than regurgitating cherry picked facts. Isn’t it? The fucking American Canine Foundation?! Seriously? Oh yeah, they’re _real_ credible. Maybe you dinguses (dingi?) should get your facts from from real sources, real records, real data collected by legitimate agencies rather than doing a Google search or looking at Wikipedia. Every police officer, every witness, every victim, every EMT…everyone involved in a pit bull attack is _wrong_ and you’re _right_, huh? You don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about, Cowboy. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/42 "2009-01-11T03:13:31Z")
> [@EJsGirl](#): > > Chows can be very mean and prone to nip or actually bite. Understanding that this is purely anecdotal, I’ve been bitten by precisely one dog in my entire life and it was a Chow. Damned thing chased me across a yard and into a house. Conversely, I used to live in a neighborhood where there was a Rottweiler who roamed and when it was cold would often sleep in our house. One of the sweetest, most tolerant dogs I’ve ever met. I understand those who say that neither Pits nor Rotties are naturally aggressive, but damned if they don’t seem to do an awful lot of damage when they _are_ aggressive. And I know cops who basically won’t screw with them. To be fair, they have a tendency to err on the side of caution with any large dog that they encounter. Seems the safest way to me. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/43 "2009-01-11T03:16:06Z")
Mine’s an anecdote too, but the snappiest dogs I’ve ever been around are Chows and Dalmations. We are in giant breeds (Newfoundlands for the last decade or so), and they are generally very even-tempered. Considering my dogs have outweighed me by at least 50-70 pounds, that’s a plus. ---
**Author:** ![BMax](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bmax/32/4267_2.png) [@BMax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMax)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/44 "2009-01-11T03:48:05Z")
> [@Jettboy](#): > > The fucking American Canine Foundation?! Seriously? Oh yeah, they’re _real_ credible. Maybe you dinguses (dingi?) should get your facts from from real sources, real records, real data collected by legitimate agencies rather than doing a Google search or looking at Wikipedia. > > Every police officer, every witness, every victim, every EMT…everyone involved in a pit bull attack is _wrong_ and you’re _right_, huh? You don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about, Cowboy. I’m the guy who owns a pure bred American Pit Bull Terrier. I have his pedigree, which shows pit (fighting) champions ten generations back, when that sort of thing was legal. I raised him from an eight-week-old puppy and he’s been my dog for ten years. I used to show him in ADBA sanctioned shows the first three years of his life. I was around a lot of pit bulls and pit bull people at those shows. He’s not the first APBT I’ve raised. Roommates of mine have had three pit bulls and pit mixes in my house with him in those ten years. I’ve handled many pit bulls in the last twenty years. I’ve delivered a couple litters and helped find good homes for the pups. I know what the fuck I’m talking about when it comes to pit bulls. Some members think that I spread Urban Legend re: APBT’s, but I agree that they require more responsible handling than, say, a lab mix of the same size. I think they demand a fenced yard with “Beware of Dog” signs and regular walks on leash. I think they need more socializing with people while they are puppies, because _if_ they attack a human, they are more likely to do serious damage than a labrador due to being bred for jaw strength and the tendency to not let go once they get a grip with their mouths. This is not true for all pit bulls, but for a greater percentage than most other breeds. I WAG that the same holds true for most breeds that were created to fight one another. My dog and lots of other pits that I’ve played have a very high threshold for pain, and don’t whine or show any reaction when grabbed by the loose skin on their flank. Most dogs of any size will yelp and either snap at you or run away if you grab them there. In fact, my dog thinks being cuffed upside the head is a game, but if I yell at him he will go into his crate and sulk for a half hour. A well-raised and socialized APBT has a more human-friendly temperment than a Labrador or many other dog breeds. That’s because the dog fighters and a referree would be in the pit with the dogs during a fight, and none of them wanted to get bit. Dogs can tell the difference between other dogs and humans. So dogs that showed human aggression were killed rather than bred. Pit bulls were bred to fight other dogs and be docile to humans. In the years since dog fighting has been outlawed, most breeders have tried to breed out the dog-aggression by neutering most of their pups and only breeding those that are less game. Some lines are more game than others. Some dogs in certain lines are more dog-aggressive than most dogs in their line. Overall, the APBT is a very human-friendly breed. My dog sucks as a watch dog because he’s too friendly to strangers. I guess I socialized him too well when he was a cute little puppy. I present this information for anyone who’s interested. I know it won’t have any effect on the OP, his mind is made up. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/45 "2009-01-11T04:11:20Z")
I agree with the idea of “socialization- early and often” having raised Newfoundlands. The sheer bulk of the dogs requires that they be well-trained and polite, or someone will get hurt. Granted, the injury tends to be a separated shoulder for the owner of a dog who lunges or runs (or who doesn’t know how to hold a frigging leash), or a knocked-over bystander. There are a huge difference between a watch dog and a guard dog (I know you know that, **BMax** , you just reminded me of it)- a watch dog will bark; a guard dog will wait in silence… 😉 I really miss our last Newf- he was a great watch dog. Now, when we hear a noise, we don’t know if it’s just a noise or if it has a scent attached to it… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/46 "2009-01-11T05:19:50Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > First off, let us dispense with the myths so that this thread can at least wreck without spreading ignorance around. Yes. And now we’ll start with your myth. > [@](#): > > No dog has “locking jaws” … Not that anyone has started with that here, but it’s better to nip that in the bud than battle it later. Ya think? Ever hear of tetanus. Dogs and people can get it and they also call it lockjaw. So lets dispense with the notion that locking jaws require a specific skeletal feature. If you don’t believe pit bull jaws can’t lock, check this [video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfLaOTcyeLU) And a comment I quoted in a previous [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10491852&postcount=63) in another thread. > [@](#): > > The most stunning instance that debunks the “not locking jaw” myth occurred in a courtroom. During the Toldeo vs. Telling trial, Lucas County Dog Warden Tom Skeldon showed a videotape of a tranquilized pit bull hanging from a steel cable. The dog is unconscious and still does not release his grip > [@](#): > > The vast majority of all attacks by Pit bulls or other Guardian breeds… Trying to repackage your Pit Bull ? Its a Fighting Breed, not a Guardian Breed. Finally, I came across this [cite](http://pit-bull-awareness-center.christianfunfair.org/ancestry.htm) dealing with a one page history/ancestry of breeding of the Pit Bull going back to the 13th century. It ends with a conclusion I heartily agree with. > [@](#): > > Note: > Pit bulls, descendants of the bulldogs used in the nineteenth century for bull baiting and dogfighting, have been bred for “gameness”, and thus a lowered inhibition to aggression. Most dogs fight as a last resort, when staring and growling fail. A pit bull is willing to fight with little or no provocation. Pit bulls have a high tolerance for pain, making it possible for them to fight to the point of exhaustion. Whereas guard dogs like German shepherds usually attempt to restrain those they perceive to be threats by biting and holding, pit bulls try to inflict the maximum amount of damage on an opponent. They bite, hold, shake, and tear. They usually don’t growl or assume an aggressive facial expression as warning. They just attack. “They are often insensitive to behaviors that usually stop aggression,” one scientific review of the breed states. “For example, dogs not bred for fighting usually display defeat in combat by rolling over and exposing a light underside. On several occasions, pit bulls have been reported to disembowel dogs offering this signal of submission.” Pit bulls have been banned or restricted in several countries, Britian, China, the UK, Germany pending, Ontario, and numerous cities and municipalities across North America. Pit bulls can be dangerous. > > Now they are being bred BIGGER and BADDER, MEANER and FASTER. > They are being bred in VAST NUMBERS. Now It is time to BAN > The BREEDERS and grandfather clause in the BREED. ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/47 "2009-01-11T05:27:37Z")
Dog bite statistics are not reliable. How many people bother to report when the neighbor’s toothless chihuahua attempted to gnaw on their ankle? I think a lot more small dogs bite people but it doesn’t get reported. If it did I think Miniature Pinchers or Chihuahua’s would be at the top of the list. ---
**Author:** ![BMax](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bmax/32/4267_2.png) [@BMax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMax)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/48 "2009-01-11T06:05:32Z")
[Quote=Flying Dutchman] Ya think? Ever hear of tetanus. Dogs and people can get it and they also call it lockjaw. So lets dispense with the notion that locking jaws require a specific skeletal feature. If you don’t believe pit bull jaws can’t lock, check this video [/quote] That dog’s jaws aren’t locked. He’s not suffering from tetanus. He’s not unconscious. He’s not holding onto a steel cable. He’s playing with a rope hung from a tree limb with a length of spring in the middle. I built one in my garage for my dog, with a tire on the end. Do you hear that dog growling? That is a play growl. You see his tail wagging when the man teases him? That’s a happy dog playing with his toy, he’s not posing a threat to anyone. Haven’t you seen a dog ‘rag doll’ a piece of rope, rug, cloth or any other toy? Pit bulls aren’t the only breed that play with their toys like that. Maybe you just haven’t spent much time around dogs. > [@](#): > > Note: > Pit bulls, descendants of the bulldogs used in the nineteenth century for bull baiting and dogfighting, have been bred for “gameness”, and thus a lowered inhibition to aggression. Most dogs fight as a last resort, when staring and growling fail. A pit bull is willing to fight with little or no provocation. Pit bulls have a high tolerance for pain, making it possible for them to fight to the point of exhaustion. Whereas guard dogs like German shepherds usually attempt to restrain those they perceive to be threats by biting and holding, pit bulls try to inflict the maximum amount of damage on an opponent. They bite, hold, shake, and tear. They usually don’t growl or assume an aggressive facial expression as warning. They just attack. “They are often insensitive to behaviors that usually stop aggression,” one scientific review of the breed states. “For example, dogs not bred for fighting usually display defeat in combat by rolling over and exposing a light underside. On several occasions, pit bulls have been reported to disembowel dogs offering this signal of submission.” Pit bulls have been banned or restricted in several countries, Britian, China, the UK, Germany pending, Ontario, and numerous cities and municipalities across North America. Pit bulls can be dangerous. A “game dog” will signal that it’s about to attack, but not by lunging, growling and barking. The body language is there if you know what to look for. When my dog was younger and game (dog aggressive), he would stand straight up, almost on his toes with his head held erect, eyes wide open, ears pulled back, and tail straight up wagging the last half of it very fast. He was prepared to attack another dog, and he was very excited for it. He was only aggressive to other (always larger) dogs, never to people. As soon as I saw this game posture, I leashed him, dragged him away form the other dog and kept him on leash whenever he wasn’t in the yard. Other game dogs will take a different fighting posture, but an owner who knows his dog will be able to tell it’s about to attack and take preventative measures. Like I said earlier, that’s what leash laws are for. I also said that pit bulls require more responsible ownership than most dogs their size. > [@](#): > > Pit bulls can be dangerous. I agree with this. So can chihuahuas. My mom has an elderly chihuahua that bit me a few years ago and tore open the webbing between my thumb and forefinger. I required four stitches. Fortunately the dog and I were both up to date on our vaccinations. The thing kept trying to attack me every time I visited my parents for three years after that. That little rat-sized dog has injured more people than my pit bull, but people don’t get hysterical with fear about chihuahuas. Because they don’t look scary. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/49 "2009-01-11T06:07:15Z")
:rolleyes: Could you pick a pit bull out of a lineup? Seriously, bull terriers are rambunctious but little. Rottweilers, coonhounds, Doberman pinschers, those are scary dogs. Pit Bulls have so much rep, other dogs get called pits when they bite someone. ---
**Author:** ![Quint](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/76d3ee/32.png) [@Quint](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quint)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/50 "2009-01-11T07:18:58Z")
> [@Trocisp](#): > > I can’t say this loudly enough. > > You’re a willfully ignorant idiot. I mean that in the nicest possible way, and if you get to know me you’ll understand that it isn’t an insult. But you’re showing a level of ignorance akin to… well… something very ignorant. 😉 > > You say Pit bulls are “Big” dogs, right? > > **Wrong**. > > What you think of as a pitbull is nothing of the sort. They’re typically bastardized versions which have been inbred and crossed with more aggressive lines, and aren’t pits by an intelligent persons definition. > > Pits are bred to be human friendly, and most educated K9 officers will tell you flat out, they can’t use them as police dogs because they’re almost impossible to get to show human aggressiveness without abusing the animal. > ETA: [American Pit Bull Terrier - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Pit_Bull_Terrier) > > Read that, that’s what a true Pit Bull is, what is commonly referred to as a Pit Bull is a media portrayal. Hey, I don’t have a dog in this fight, but your cite says: “The APBT is a breed that is loyal to friends and family, and friendly to strangers. Proper training can make the dog obedient and have a high desire to please. Without proper guidance, though, the breed can become stubborn, and at times, aggressive. A study done by the CDC showed that **“pit bull” breeds accounted for the majority of dog related fatalities in the United States between 1979 and 1996** , though the study admits some limitations in its data.” _bolding added_ I can’t see how this supports the idea that it is not a dangerous breed. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/51 "2009-01-11T07:44:53Z")
> [@Jettboy](#): > > The fucking American Canine Foundation?! Seriously? Oh yeah, they’re _real_ credible. Maybe you dinguses (dingi?) should get your facts from from real sources, real records, real data collected by legitimate agencies rather than doing a Google search or looking at Wikipedia. > > Every police officer, every witness, every victim, every EMT…everyone involved in a pit bull attack is _wrong_ and you’re _right_, huh? You don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about, Cowboy. Actually, you don’t. For one thing, the average police officer, witness, victim or EMT doesn’t know dog breeds well enough to know if a dog is even purebred, much less if it is of a specific breed. I’ve done rescue and shelter work long enough to know that if a dog sort of kind of in a way might look like such and such breed, it’s going to be identified as that breed. So, every short haired floppy eared black dog is a “Lab”, every dog with long brown hair and a long head is a “collie” and every short haired dog with a blocky head is a “pit”, especially if it is brown. Second, it isn’t the breed, it’s the deed. Chows, Dobermans, “pits” (I put that in quotes because so many of these dogs are not purebred), Rotts, and now some of the rarer ones like the Presa Canario have each had their - what is the opposite of day in the sun? People who just like to have a vicious dog around, those that like to fight dogs or fight them against other animals, those that think a loose cannon will make a good guard dog - they latch onto a breed for awhile, long enough to give it a bad reputation, and a ton of dogs in shelters and rescue that must be put down because they are unreliable. In the cases of breed specific legislation, they just get something else. No dog breed is inherently dangerous, it is the humans that either breed specific lines for unstable temperaments or treat individual dogs in ways that make them this way. Third, it is currently popular for the media to call most dogs that bite “pits”, even tho any photos clearly show the dog to be a mixed breed, a Boxer, a Labrador, whatever. What breed that may be an issue is also a local issue, as illustrated by the post above about the vet and the Rotts - around here, Rotts are hardly ever an issue as almost all of them are show bred and have wonderful temperaments. However, in north city we have quite a bit of dog fighting and drug running, so we do get far too many generic pit looking mixes with crap for temperaments. Yet, no matter where the dog came from or what breed or mix it is, the media calls it a “pit” more times than not. You simply cannot trust any statistics that have been gathered from stories in the media, or any other source that is unreliable WRT breed indentification. Finally, 40 years in dogs, the worst bites I’ve had came from a Cocker I was grooming (it had rage,) and an extremely spoiled retriever that the owners were afraid of and left for board and train without telling me the sucker bit. In both cases, the only reason I wasn’t severely injured or killed was my experience with dogs and in both cases, we are talking breeds not in any way related to “pits”. It’s like guns, cars and alcohol - some people should never be allowed around any of them because it is those people that make these things dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/52 "2009-01-11T08:08:07Z")
> [@Trocisp](#): > > It’s funny what the statistics show when you actually bother to look them up, rather than regurgitating cherry picked facts. Isn’t it? > > Thanks, **Westrogothia**. > ETA: Hey, there’s another Logical Fallacy we can add to your, getting rather extensive, list **Jettboy**! Right, when statistic data doesn’t suit you it’s called an “appeal to probability” fallacy, when it does it’s called evidence. Funny stuff indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/53 "2009-01-11T08:22:51Z")
Ontario has banned pit bull terriers, Staffordshire bull terriers, American Staffordshire terriers, American pit bull terriers, and dogs that have an appearance and physical characteristics that are substantially similar to those of dogs. [http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws\_statutes\_90d16\_e.htm](http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_90d16_e.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/54 "2009-01-11T08:26:50Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Second, it isn’t the breed, it’s the deed. Chows, Dobermans, “pits” (I put that in quotes because so many of these dogs are not purebred), Rotts, and now some of the rarer ones like the Presa Canario have each had their - what is the opposite of day in the sun? People who just like to have a vicious dog around, those that like to fight dogs or fight them against other animals, those that think a loose cannon will make a good guard dog - they latch onto a breed for awhile, long enough to give it a bad reputation, and a ton of dogs in shelters and rescue that must be put down because they are unreliable. In the cases of breed specific legislation, they just get something else. No dog breed is inherently dangerous, it is the humans that either breed specific lines for unstable temperaments or treat individual dogs in ways that make them this way. Unfortunately, we can’t ban these types of people. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/55 "2009-01-11T08:51:46Z")
> [@BMax](#): > > A “game dog” will signal that it’s about to attack, but not by lunging, growling and barking. The body language is there if you know what to look for. When my dog was younger and game (dog aggressive), he would stand straight up, almost on his toes with his head held erect, eyes wide open, ears pulled back, and tail straight up wagging the last half of it very fast. Sorry, but I feel no obligation to learn the specific body language of your special dog to stay safe. Everybody knows from an early age that a dog growling and barking is potentially a threat. If your dog, when in “attack mode” displays a behaviour that people won’t recognize, it’s more dangerous than another dog. I don’t want the thing around me. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/56 "2009-01-11T08:54:56Z")
> [@Wile\_E](#): > > Dog bite statistics are not reliable. How many people bother to report when the neighbor’s toothless chihuahua attempted to gnaw on their ankle? I think a lot more small dogs bite people but it doesn’t get reported. If it did I think Miniature Pinchers or Chihuahua’s would be at the top of the list. Well… And maybe that doesn’t matter because you’re not going to be harmed by the toothless chihuahua? Maybe people are only interest in dog bites that resulted in actual damage? ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/57 "2009-01-11T10:45:25Z")
> [@Jettboy](#): > > The fucking American Canine Foundation?! Seriously? Oh yeah, they’re _real_ credible. Maybe you dinguses (dingi?) should get your facts from from real sources, real records, real data collected by legitimate agencies rather than doing a Google search or looking at Wikipedia. I have. However since you’ve continued to say the same thing over and over, without regard to fact, I have no need to bring them up. I’ve already thoroughly shot through your arguments, and yet you continue to repeat them. > [@Jettboy](#): > > Every police officer, every witness, every victim, every EMT…everyone involved in a pit bull attack is _wrong_ and you’re _right_, huh? You don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about, Cowboy. > [@Trocisp](#): > > […]K9 officers will tell you flat out, they can’t use them as police dogs because they’re almost impossible to get to show human aggressiveness without abusing the animal. Yep, everyone… except, you know… the Officers who **deal with dogs as their fucking jobs.** And, you know… Surgeon who lives down the road from me and owns an American Pit Bull Terrier… and the, oh who the fuck am I kidding, God himself (lol) could come down from on high and say that pits were no more dangerous and any other breed and your willfully ignorant ass wouldn’t change his mind. > [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Ever hear of tetanus. Dogs and people can get it and they also call it lockjaw. So lets dispense with the notion that locking jaws require a specific skeletal feature. It’s not a _locking jaw_ any more than when you close your fist and hold it tight you have a _locking fist_ mechanism. > [@BMax](#): > > When my dog was younger and game (dog aggressive), he would stand straight up, almost on his toes with his head held erect, eyes wide open, ears pulled back, and tail straight up wagging the last half of it very fast. He was prepared to attack another dog, and he was very excited for it. He was only aggressive to other (always larger) dogs, never to people. You know, it’s funny. My male Bully does the exact same thing (American Bulldog, Old Southern White). My female doesn’t understand ‘attack,’ she’s too friendly. With people and other animals. She plays (admittedly rough sometimes) but never attacks. > [@Quint](#): > > Hey, I don’t have a dog in this fight, but your cite says: > > [snipped quote for size] > > I can’t see how this supports the idea that it is not a dangerous breed. African American people were responsible for the majority of crimes (per capita) in the United States of America. I can’t see how that supports the idea that they’re not a dangerous breed. You see where I’m going with this? It’s an environmental thing, those who want dogs for attack, buy an American Pit Bull Terrier (or like dog) and abuse them to make them human aggressive. It’s just like if you were to ban clothing based on whether or not someone commits a crime while wearing that color. Yes, black is probably the most commonly worn color while someone is committing a crime. Does that mean that black clothing makes people commit crimes, or does that mean that all people who wear black clothing are criminals? > [@Pedro](#): > > Right, when statistic data doesn’t suit you it’s called an “appeal to probability” fallacy, when it does it’s called evidence. Funny stuff indeed. I’m not claiming that because the statistics show something, we should ban something. Appeal to Probability is appealing to the probability that something is like (or more likely) we should ban it. I’m not saying we should ban anything. I don’t see how that’s even remotely close to an appeal to probability on my part. :dubious: > [@clairobscur](#): > > Sorry, but I feel no obligation to learn the specific body language of your special dog to stay safe. Everybody knows from an early age that a dog growling and barking is potentially a threat. If your dog, when in “attack mode” displays a behaviour that people won’t recognize, it’s more dangerous than another dog. I don’t want the thing around me. **Most** dogs don’t bark/growl/etc before they attack. They bark/growl/etc to make it so they don’t have to. In other words, most people don’t yell and scream before they get into a fight. They yell and scream so they don’t have to. **But** , before to guys get into a fight, have you ever noticed that there’s a subtle difference in their body language? They typically stand a bit straighter, puff out their chests, pull up and out on their shoulders, etc. Dogs do the same thing. All of them. Including my (former) 30 pound mutt of mixed breed (Spitz, Collie). > [@clairobscur](#): > > Well… And maybe that doesn’t matter because you’re not going to be harmed by the toothless chihuahua? > > Maybe people are only interest in dog bites that resulted in actual damage? Then the argument that certain types of dogs are more likely to bite than other types of dogs goes out the window. Obviously certain dogs are **not** more aggressive than others. See how BSL-backing arguments don’t stand up when you apply logic to them? ---
**Author:** ![Westrogothia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@Westrogothia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Westrogothia)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/58 "2009-01-11T11:44:46Z")
> [@Jettboy](#): > > The fucking American Canine Foundation?! Seriously? Oh yeah, they’re _real_ credible. Maybe you dinguses (dingi?) should get your facts from from real sources, real records, real data collected by legitimate agencies rather than doing a Google search or looking at Wikipedia. > > Every police officer, every witness, every victim, every EMT…everyone involved in a pit bull attack is _wrong_ and you’re _right_, huh? You don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about, Cowboy. May I assume then that you will only accept statistics from sources that agree with you? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/59 "2009-01-11T11:53:11Z")
What a colossally stupid OP. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/60 "2009-01-11T12:01:43Z")
I know Cesar ‘The Dog Whisperer’ Millan has his critics, but every episode I’ve ever seen points to one thing; the owner is usually the one with the problems and they’ve allowed them to rub off on the dogs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682.md?page=4)