# Of Mountain Lions and Pit Bulls **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 10, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682 "2009-01-10T17:00:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/61 "2009-01-11T14:24:07Z")
For those posters that seem to think that the self reported data in those studies should be taken seriously, try the [Pick the Pitbull](http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html) game in that link. It has a lot of other breeds along with the APBT in it and see how you do. After being an animal enthusiast since I was a child, and [owning a pet store](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=500446), I have developed the skill of being able to pick out most reptile breed lines, and genetic locations from their subtle differences in color and pattern. It is a skill that takes years to develop, and I STILL can’t pick out a APBT every time. Most people can’t tell a boa from a ball python, nor an iguana from any other lizard. They don’t care enough, nor have developed the visual skill to do so. Dog genetics are among the most plastic of all domesticated animals, and the huge amount of variability makes definitively picking out any dog but a true purebred nearly impossible. There is a reason that not any joe shmoe off the street can judge a dog show, or be a champion breeder. Further, it has been shown that in times of stress, people’s ability to accurately remember what they saw is terrible. [CITE](http://www.innocenceproject.org/understand/Eyewitness-Misidentification.php) > [@](#): > > Eyewitness misidentification is the single greatest cause of wrongful convictions nationwide, playing a role in more than 75% of convictions overturned through DNA testing. > > While eyewitness testimony can be persuasive evidence before a judge or jury, 30 years of strong social science research has proven that eyewitness identification is often unreliable. Research shows that the human mind is not like a tape recorder; we neither record events exactly as we see them, nor recall them like a tape that has been rewound. Instead, witness memory is like any other evidence at a crime scene; it must be preserved carefully and retrieved methodically, or it can be contaminated. We can’t even identify other humans correctly, I don’t have a whole slew of faith in the ability of a person of average experience with dogs being able to make an positive Breed ID when even vets have to admit that _any_ mixed breed ID is a guess. The evidence simply is not reliable enough to make a determination on the basis of a breed, or even a phenotype. Cities that have enacted such bans have acted irresponsibly and disproportionately to the issue regardless of their legal right to do so. They could ban Ice cream cones if they saw fit. It doesn’t make it any less silly. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Surb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ce73a5/32.png) [@The\_Surb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Surb)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/62 "2009-01-11T14:46:05Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > I own a pit/mastiff cross bitch. Despite being starved and left alone in a yard as a young puppy, she has a pleasant, happy disposition and is fine around dogs, cats, and children. **She likes to lick babies’ toes espescially**. I trust her as much as I would any other dog around children, and far more than most that I run into. OH MY GOD, she’s not licking, she’s tasting!:eek:😃 ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/63 "2009-01-11T14:51:30Z")
> [@The\_Surb](#): > > OH MY GOD, she’s not licking, she’s tasting!:eek:😃 I know I shouldn’t let her do it, the buds on her tongue are different from other dogs, and will “lock” onto the tender flesh of toddlers, stripping them to the bone, but I can’t be arsed. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/64 "2009-01-11T14:55:24Z")
Well fuck me sideways. Apparently, the dogs I always thought were Pits, have always called Pits, are always referred to as Pits around me and who do look ugly as sin (I’m adamant on this) are actually Dogo Argentinos or Bull Terriers. Real Pits don’t look anything like a nasty cross between a rat and a steroid freak at all ! :eek: Ah - but according to [Wikipédia.fr](http://xn--Wikipdia-f1a.fr), I’m not wrong - the French word “pitbull” doesn’t designate the APBT breed, but is legalese for “anything looks like an American Staffordshire Terrier”. So I have an excuse for my ignorance 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/65 "2009-01-11T14:58:16Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > I know I shouldn’t let her do it, the buds on her tongue are different from other dogs, and will “lock” onto the tender flesh of toddlers, stripping them to the bone, but I can’t be arsed. 😃 I snorted a bit when reading this. ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/66 "2009-01-11T15:00:27Z")
Give up. The pit bull apologists will never admit that the breed is potentially dangerous. It isn’t the dog, it’s the owner, etc. etc. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/67 "2009-01-11T15:06:09Z")
> [@mks57](#): > > Give up. The pit bull apologists will never admit that the breed is potentially dangerous. It isn’t the dog, it’s the owner, etc. etc. Way to attempt to be superior without arguing. Aren’t you clever! ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/68 "2009-01-11T15:12:54Z")
> [@Trocisp](#): > > Way to attempt to be superior without arguing. > > Aren’t you clever! Just being realistic, having read many threads on the subject. Many pet owners are delusional when it comes to the subject of their pets. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/69 "2009-01-11T15:21:00Z")
> [@mks57](#): > > Just being realistic, having read many threads on the subject. Many pet owners are delusional when it comes to the subject of their pets. I’m not a Pit owner. I’m not even a pet owner. It’s not the fucking breed. ---
**Author:** ![Westrogothia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@Westrogothia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Westrogothia)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/70 "2009-01-11T15:27:38Z")
> [@mks57](#): > > Just being realistic, having read many threads on the subject. Many pet owners are delusional when it comes to the subject of their pets. Well Ive read many threads on the subject, And I believe many of the people against pitbulls are trying to rationalize their fear of dogs in general by using the pitbull as a scape goat. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/71 "2009-01-11T15:30:42Z")
> [@mks57](#): > > Just being realistic, having read many threads on the subject. Many pet owners are delusional when it comes to the subject of their pets. I guess you missed the part where I said I don’t own pits, hu? Just a note: I also don’t own a “suped up” honda civic (one of the cars most likely to be in a fatal accident in my area), but I still don’t think it’s the car that causes the problem. ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/72 "2009-01-11T15:31:55Z")
> [@Westrogothia](#): > > Well Ive read many threads on the subject, And I believe many of the people against pitbulls are trying to rationalize their fear of dogs in general by using the pitbull as a scape goat. [http://www.dogsbite.org/bite-fatalities-2008.htm](http://www.dogsbite.org/bite-fatalities-2008.htm) How many dead bodies does it take? ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/73 "2009-01-11T15:35:56Z")
> [@mks57](#): > > [http://www.dogsbite.org/bite-fatalities-2008.htm](http://www.dogsbite.org/bite-fatalities-2008.htm) > > How many dead bodies does it take? Great page. The dog in the picture may not even be a APBT. It looks a hell of lot more like an american bulldog, or a dogo. Full of heartbreaking testimonials and the a nice mythical sigline “Some dogs don’t let go”. Yawn. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/74 "2009-01-11T15:37:46Z")
> [@mks57](#): > > [http://www.dogsbite.org/bite-fatalities-2008.htm](http://www.dogsbite.org/bite-fatalities-2008.htm) > > How many dead bodies does it take? Then we should ban **all** dogs, because it still hasn’t been shown that Pits cause any more fatalities per-dog than any other breed. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/75 "2009-01-11T16:03:51Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Sorry, but I feel no obligation to learn the specific body language of your special dog to stay safe. Everybody knows from an early age that a dog growling and barking is potentially a threat. If your dog, when in “attack mode” displays a behaviour that people won’t recognize, it’s more dangerous than another dog. I don’t want the thing around me. **Clair** , the body language \*\* BMax \*\*is describing in his post isn’t some unique pitbull behavior. ALL dogs which really mean business when they attack show precisely the body language he is describing right before they launch into their attack. A dog which is growling and barking is actually indicating it’s nervous/frightened/unsure of itself; a confident, dominant dog won’t growl or bark before it bites, and its attack will be much more determined. What you’re really saying is that the general public doesn’t know much about dogs and is incapable of accurately reading dog body language in general. That’s fine, but don’t use that ignorance to slam pit bulls. ANY dog that weighs 40 or more pounds is quite capable of killing people; whether it goes on to do so is determined by both its own personal temperament and by how its owner has trained and handled it. Anyone who chooses to own a medium or large breed dog should learn enough about dog behavior to ‘read’ their dog’s signals and take action to prevent a problem before it happens. That too many don’t bother to do so is not the fault of their dogs. ---
**Author:** ![BMax](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bmax/32/4267_2.png) [@BMax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMax)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/76 "2009-01-11T16:08:12Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Sorry, but I feel no obligation to learn the specific body language of your special dog to stay safe. Everybody knows from an early age that a dog growling and barking is potentially a threat. If your dog, when in “attack mode” displays a behaviour that people won’t recognize, it’s more dangerous than another dog. I don’t want the thing around me. Don’t worry, he only showed game to other male dogs and you’re not a male dog. You seem to have skipped everything I wrote about pit bulls being bred for docility towards humans, about the breed requiring more responsible ownership than most dogs, etc. > [@mks57](#): > > Give up. The pit bull apologists will never admit that the breed is potentially dangerous. It isn’t the dog, it’s the owner, etc. etc. I’ve seen Scottish terriers that were dead game; ie, they would fight another dog at first sight. Same for chows, akitas, and a few other nordic-type dogs that have lunged at my dog while I walked him on leash. Obviously, gameness isn’t isolated to pit bulls, or medium-sized dogs with slick fur, broad shoulders and block heads. I’m not going to say that no dogs are human-aggressive, or that no pit bulls are human aggressive. Human aggression is a rare trait in bulldog-type breeds. It’s a rare trait in all breeds of dog, otherwise people wouldn’t call them “man’s best friend”. Banning the breed because of the way it looks isn’t going to stop dog attacks on people. Guys who want a mean dog will get another breed, like German Shepherds, Doberman Pinschers, chows, Rottweillers, etc. Responsible breeding and training will reduce the number of dog attacks. But really, don’t call for my dog’s death because you read an article about a dog of similar appearance attacking someone. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/77 "2009-01-11T16:08:39Z")
> [@mks57](#): > > Just being realistic, having read many threads on the subject. Many pet owners are delusional when it comes to the subject of their pets. Hardly. I am actually an advocate **against** people buying Newfoundlands (my current breed), as are most good breeders. We understand completely that some breeds require much more out of owners than the average Joe or Jane is able to give. Whether it is space requirements, exercise guidelines, dietary issues, training and socialization needs, coat maintenance or health care, there are many breeds that people THINK they would love to own, but have no idea what owning and raising the breed actually entails. Their ignorance results in neglected, damaged, abandoned animals who are difficult or impossible to place in a new home. All dog breeds are not the same, agreed. But owner responsibility and intelligence has a much greater effect on a dog’s behavior. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/78 "2009-01-11T18:38:12Z")
> [@mks57](#): > > Give up. The pit bull apologists will never admit that the breed is potentially dangerous. It isn’t the dog, it’s the owner, etc. etc. Which doesn’t change a thing, anyway. If the majority of owners end up, for whatever reason (including “one must own a dangerous pitbull to show one is a bad ass”) with a dangerous dog, that’s reason enough to demand special restrictions for these dogs. Second, the issue is obviously disputed. If pitbulls are _perhaps_ responsible for 69% of lethal attacks, that’s good enough for me. There’s no protected right to own a particular breed of dogs without restriction. Third, I’ve seen shepherd dogs who hadn’t seen a flock in their life trying to close the ranks when presented with one. I don’t want to be around a dog whose race has been breeded for fight. The protection of the general public is the first priority. Not having restrictions when you own a specific breed of dogs (or any dog related to it, for that matter. I don’t care if it’s not exactly a pitbull), or even the right to own one, period, is a distant 5894th or so. ---
**Author:** ![Jettboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@Jettboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jettboy)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/79 "2009-01-11T18:45:03Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Which doesn’t change a thing, anyway. If the majority of owners end up, for whatever reason (including “one must own a dangerous pitbull to show one is a bad ass”) with a dangerous dog, that’s reason enough to demand special restrictions for these dogs. > > Second, the issue is obviously disputed. If pitbulls are _perhaps_ responsible for 69% of lethal attacks, that’s good enough for me. There’s no protected right to own a particular breed of dogs without restriction. > > Third, I’ve seen shepherd dogs who hadn’t seen a flock in their life trying to close the ranks when presented with one. I don’t want to be around a dog whose race has been breeded for fight. > > The protection of the general public is the first priority. Not having restrictions when you own a specific breed of dogs (or any dog related to it, for that matter. I don’t care if it’s not exactly a pitbull), or even the right to own one, period, is a distant 5894th or so. You’re entirely too rational to be in involved in this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/80 "2009-01-11T18:47:00Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > **Clair** , the body language \*\* BMax \*\*is describing in his post isn’t some unique pitbull behavior. ALL dogs which really mean business when they attack show precisely the body language he is describing right before they launch into their attack. A dog which is growling and barking is actually indicating it’s nervous/frightened/unsure of itself; a confident, dominant dog won’t growl or bark before it bites, and its attack will be much more determined. Well… then I prefer to be around nervous dogs who will first bark and growl so that they won’t have to fight than around confident dogs that will systematically bypass this step to enter directly into fighting mode. Doesn’t change a thing for me. > [@](#): > > Anyone who chooses to own a medium or large breed dog should learn enough about dog behavior to ‘read’ their dog’s signals and take action to prevent a problem before it happens. That too many don’t bother to do so is not the fault of their dogs. I don’t care whose fault it is. Again, it’s enough for me if I’m given evidences (like possibly inaccurate statistics) that dogs belonging to this breed are possibly unusually dangerous, for whatever reason. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682.md?page=5)