# Of Mountain Lions and Pit Bulls **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 10, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682 "2009-01-10T17:00:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/101 "2009-01-12T03:23:37Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > Well, except little dogs like that do cause actual damage. I’m perfectly willing to believe you’ve been seriously wounded by a mini-dog. And actually, the only time I was bitten was by a rather small dog. But let’s get real : In non-weird circumstances, Chihuahua aren’t going to be as dangerous as large dogs. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/102 "2009-01-12T03:25:20Z")
> [@Jettboy](#): > > They want to own these big, powerful, potentially dangerous animals Well, form one thing, pit bulls aren’t big. The MAXIMUM size for a male is 65 pounds. The weight range for the Ameircan Pit Bull Terrier: 30-60 pounds for a female, 35-65 pounds for a male. Since these dogs typically have a lot of muscle, and muscle is denser than fat, and they’re very short-haired, a pit bull will generally turn out to be smaller in appearance than you’d think for its actual weight. Pit bulls are considered medium dogs. Now, I have all kinds of other issues with your claims – namely, that pit bulls, absent human malice, are especially dangerous; a child was killed by a Jack Russell Terrier earlier this year, for example. But just the fact that you seem to think pit bulls are large dogs shows you are taking such a superficial apprach to the facts that the dialog you wish to open won’t be worth participating in – not on a board dedicated to fighting ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/103 "2009-01-12T03:31:00Z")
> [@Trocisp](#): > > **Clairobscur** , I think you and I won’t come to an agreement in that you’re okay with the arbitrary banning of dogs and (presumably) objects, where I on the other hand am against the banning of anything on the basis of ‘because we can’ and ‘because it makes me feel good.’ “Arbitrary” is a bit much. What I stated is that it doesn’t need to be proven to me beyond the shadow of a doubt that the breed is dangerous for me to support specific restrictions. There’s no constitutional right to own a specific breed, nor here nor there, and there are plenty of other dogs. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/104 "2009-01-12T03:36:15Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > “Arbitrary” is a bit much. What I stated is that it doesn’t need to be proven to me beyond the shadow of a doubt that the breed is dangerous for me to support specific restrictions. There’s no constitutional right to own a specific breed, nor here nor there, and there are plenty of other dogs. Something does not have to be a constitutional right in order for it to be a reasonable right. You don’t have a constitutional right to own a hat, yet I imagine if that were banned you’d be pretty pissed off. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/105 "2009-01-12T03:46:26Z")
> [@Trocisp](#): > > Something does not have to be a constitutional right in order for it to be a reasonable right. > > You don’t have a constitutional right to own a hat, yet I imagine if that were banned you’d be pretty pissed off. Dubious, since I rarely wear a hat. Anyway, we’re not talking about banning hats, but about putting restrictions on John Steed’s style hats. Honestly, I don’t see the point in responding anymore. I’m only going to repeat myself again and over again. I’ve no issue with statutes being passed concerning a breed that is merely strongly suspected of being dangerous, and there are plenty of other dogs for dog lovers. If you really, really, can’t be happy with any other breed for some reason, then raise them as you would a mountain lion if it’s what the law requires. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/106 "2009-01-12T03:55:34Z")
> [@mks57](#): > > [http://www.dogsbite.org/bite-fatalities-2008.htm](http://www.dogsbite.org/bite-fatalities-2008.htm) > > How many dead bodies does it take? For the record, [dogsbite.org](http://dogsbite.org) is essentially a hate site. It definitely has a specific agenda and no scruples about playing fast and loose with facts. For example, the dog pictured in their banner is neither a pit bull nor a rottweiler, the two breeds they claim are the problem. Also note that in terms of “how many dead bodies will it take?” the average number of deaths in the 41 years before 2006 was 13…in a nation of 300 million that’s pretty much statistically insignificant. The odds of a child being killed by bleach, scissors, or most especially, his or her own parent, are many times higher. In terms of deaths, not bites, but deaths – which are the terms of your argument and that of the website – this is an almost unmeasurably small problem. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/107 "2009-01-12T04:00:01Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Unfortunately, we can’t ban these types of people. Yes, it’s sad that we blame animals for our own failings. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/108 "2009-01-12T04:04:31Z")
> [@mks57](#): > > [http://www.dogsbite.org/bite-fatalities-2008.htm](http://www.dogsbite.org/bite-fatalities-2008.htm) > > How many dead bodies does it take? Oh look at that, 23 dead. So many more than cars, guns, knives, ATVs… ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/109 "2009-01-12T04:06:07Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > I, for one, am tired of the constant wave of menacing Chow Chow attacks. (Alternatively: …the hell?) > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > They are called Chow Chow’s because they see everything as food! 🙂 > [@Scissorjack](#): > > Kids accidentally inhale them and suffocate. [This](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chow_Chow) is the dog you’re talking about. If you read the article, note that it warns that some homeowners insurance companies will not insure you if you have this breed of dog. I’m thinking you guys might have some other breed in mind. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/110 "2009-01-12T04:31:33Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I’m perfectly happy with the current ban. But since we’re discussing about the USA where they aren’t, I’m just saying that I’ve no issue with specific restrictions for certain breeds I’m not - I think the dog owner’s permit idea makes much more sense. You could teach new owners the basics of ethology, canine training, canine care etc…, and the psych evaluation is sound too. Does away with the whole mean dog issue alltogether, and for good. Because while pits were the recent fad, I still remember Desproges’ vicious Chronique against the dog demonizers of his day, who were all over German Shepherds. Evil biting Nazi dogs they were, a few decades ago, when today everyone recognizes them as excellent family dogs. Fads come and go. I don’t doubt there’ll be another a decade down the road, and dogs of all breeds will always be dumb enough to be trained to do anything. They’re not the problem, and never were. But mostly, and truely, what I’m particularly not happy about is that hurried laws were drafted and passed because of a stupid media frenzy - which mostly fed on itself too. How many morons got pits \*because \*they were “killing machines” ? > [@](#): > > Yes. I can recognize them easily. They purr and go “meow”, right? Hehe, I was gonna end that sentence by “hint : they’re the ones with four legs that go “woof”” if you must know 😛 > [@](#): > > Seriously : yes. I even like dogs, believe it or not. Though I don’t own one, first because being single and childless I don’t want to be hampered by being responsible for a dog, and second because I live in Paris, and I believe that a dog does not belong to an apartment. Same goes for cats, actually. Such pets have to have a lot of space to roam, IMO (I’ve been brought up in the countryside). On this we can agree. > [@](#): > > Maybe. But they have been breed for fight for much longer than that. That was their “job”. To fight other dogs. Human aggression is a different trait, that actually goes somewhat against their obedient nature. In fact, that’s the only real complaint against pitbulls I’ll readily accept as true : they’ll bite and sometimes maim other dogs much more easily, esp. if they’re not socialized enough early on. > [@](#): > > That’s probably why French law doesn’t only ban owning pit bulls but also the mutts of mutts you’re referring to. Makes perfect sense to me. What I mean was that a mutt of mutts (or, as my dad likes to call them, a purebreeds) doesn’t have any traits - or rather, none you can say is present in all of 'em. So you can’t say they’re more aggressive than others, or more apt to attack humans or whatever. The only thing all pitmutts have in common is their size and musculature, which as has already been stated is 1) not any different from that of other dogs their size 2) far from being the max. out there. Now a Great Dane half my size and twice my weight, that one is quite scary at first 😉 > [@](#): > > As I said before, that’s not a valid argument for me. If the breed is dangerous, even if it’s because it attracts morons, I’m OK with banning it. And I’m not going to take the word of the breed’s defenders when they state that the high number of attacks is only caused by bad owners. I look at the 65% statistics, and think : there are indications that this breed is abnormally dangerous. I don’t need anymore evidences, I don’t want the thing around me anymore than I want a mountain lion, thanks. There are plenty of other dogs to choose from. Yes and no. That’s akin to saying “I notice that most young delinquents wear vibrant yellow tracksuits, so let’s ban yellow tracksuits, there will be no more delinquents”. You’re curing the symptom instead of dealing with the root problem (in my example : utter lack of taste and fashion sense) > [@](#): > > I almost added : “buy a chihuahua” to the part you were quoting. I eventually didn’t because I hate the concept of “pocket dog”. That’s just unnatural, bordering sick to breed such dogs. So I might not even allow the chihuahua. 😉 Here, again, we can agree. I’m not sure I hate the concept - I just want to punt them. They’re very puntable animals. Very puntworthy too, ill-tempered yappy rodents they are. > [@](#): > > Indeed. But the net effect is the same. The breed is going to die out in France, since they can’t be imported and must be neutered. Actually, I suspect there must not be many left, since the law was passed 8 years ago. There must be, since as I said earlier, my brother in law’s got a new pup - but then he’s a vet, so he’s probably got some leeway there. Which makes me think : it’s illegal to sell or give or buy them… but not to find one (or abandon one to be found). Or even rescue one from a shelter ? In any case, it’s kind of silly to all but ban them, because you overtly set out to ban them… but not ban them 🙂 > [@](#): > > “Arme par destination” (weapon by intent) means that a person committing an infraction in which the dog is involved will be prosecuted as if he person was armed. For instance, if the dog is used to threaten someone, the culprit will face the same sentence as someone who would have used, say, a gun. OK, that makes sense - although I’d apply that to any dog really. Yes, even a Chihuaha. They yip. You can threaten someone with letting them yip. For hours. If that’s not a weapon, I don’t know what is. [QUOTE=Trocisp] You don’t have a constitutional right to own a hat, yet I imagine if that were banned you’d be pretty pissed off. [/QUOTE] What breed of hat are we talking about here ? Cause I’d ban bucket hats in a second 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/111 "2009-01-12T04:42:46Z")
Shit, missed the edit window. I wanted to add that while pits are indeed bred to fight, they’re also very much bred to be obedient to the extreme to their owner, and not take initiatives. Which is why they’re usually not the brightest spoons in the deck. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/112 "2009-01-12T05:30:14Z")
> [@coffeecat](#): > > Beagles were bred to hunt rabbits.. Sheepdogs were bred to herd sheep. Pit Bulls were not bred to attack people; they were bred to fight other dogs. Yes…I’ve read that that makes them even less likely to attack people because no dog handler wants a dog that will attack him. They only want the pitbulls to attack other dogs. ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/113 "2009-01-12T05:39:44Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Yes…I’ve read that that makes them even less likely to attack people because no dog handler wants a dog that will attack him. They only want the pitbulls to attack other dogs. How compartmentalized is aggression towards the handler, strangers, dogs, and other animals? I’ve seen a number of stories on TV about pit bulls getting loose and going on killing rampages. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/114 "2009-01-12T06:59:08Z")
Dogs need to be on leashes when in public, and kept secure when in private. In California, where I live, you are liable civilly for all damage the dog does, regardless of negligence. When I was a kid I had a dog that would bite people from time to time. He bit me, he bit others. Dogs sometimes bite. Dogs need to be spayed and neutered and need to be trained in addition to being kept under control. ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/115 "2009-01-12T10:35:19Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > [This](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chow_Chow) is the dog you’re talking about. If you read the article, note that it warns that some homeowners insurance companies will not insure you if you have this breed of dog. I’m thinking you guys might have some other breed in mind. Huh. Here was me thinking they were one of those thyroidal caterpillar little handbag dogs. Ignorance fought. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/116 "2009-01-12T12:34:17Z")
> [@mks57](#): > > How compartmentalized is aggression towards the handler, strangers, dogs, and other animals? I’ve seen a number of stories on TV about pit bulls getting loose and going on killing rampages. **Very** compartmentalized. What you see on TV **are not real pit bulls** , as has been said a number of times in this thread. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Dogs need to be on leashes when in public, and kept secure when in private. In California, where I live, you are liable civilly for all damage the dog does, regardless of negligence. When I was a kid I had a dog that would bite people from time to time. He bit me, he bit others. Dogs sometimes bite. Dogs need to be spayed and neutered and need to be trained in addition to being kept under control. Not _all_ dogs need to be spayed or neutered. If you have no plan on breeding your dog though, yes. It most definitely should be. In fact, in the areas I’ve lived recently there has been incentive to do so; we would have to pay an extra 80-200 dollars in licensing fees for our male (who isn’t fixed, opposed to our female who is) if he wasn’t a Society-Registered Stud. ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/117 "2009-01-12T12:46:46Z")
> [@Trocisp](#): > > What you see on TV **are not real pit bulls** , as has been said a number of times in this thread. [Pit Bulls Attacking Mendocino Livestock](http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v08/n1078/a05.html) What are they, Martians? ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/118 "2009-01-12T12:58:10Z")
> [@mks57](#): > > [Pit Bulls Attacking Mendocino Livestock](http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v08/n1078/a05.html) > > What are they, Martians? Attacking live stock and attacking humans are different. You ask about one thing, and then you respond with another. Those **could** be Pits, but they could also be American Bulldogs, Boxers, Mutts, etc. And even if they were, Aggression towards live stock is innate in **all** hungry dogs, that shows that the owners aren’t feeding them properly, not that they’re Human Aggressive dogs. Simply calling them one thing does not make it so. I could call them Chihuahua, would that make them Chihuahuas? No, it would just mean I can’t identify them for what they really are. As has been stated a few times in this thread - 99.999% of the general population can’t tell the difference between a Pit Bull and an Am-Staff, American Bulldogs, or about a million other muscle defined, box headed breeds (including boxers). ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/119 "2009-01-12T13:12:21Z")
> [@mks57](#): > > [Pit Bulls Attacking Mendocino Livestock](http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v08/n1078/a05.html) > > What are they, Martians? Do you even fucking read an article for comprehension beyond the first paragraph? The dogs are a side effect of heavy illegal marijuana growing operations in the area. The idiots leave the dogs out to guard the fields. They leave unsupervised, unsocialized, ill-trained, carnivores out loose. Then they take off when they feel the heat is on or whenever they need to do business or whatever. So dogs do what dogs do. They form up into their pack and GO LOOK FOR FUCKING FOOD. The breed is irrelevant up only to note that if residents see a bunch of loose pits, they probably should call animal control. From your own article: > [@](#): > > Although some pit bulls are bred to fight and kill, it’s not their fault they kill livestock, Pinches said. > > “It’s the people’s problem, not controlling their dogs,” he said. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682/120 "2009-01-12T16:33:03Z")
> [@Scissorjack](#): > > Huh. Here was me thinking they were one of those thyroidal caterpillar little handbag dogs. Ignorance fought. No, you’re thinking about Pomeranians. They’re frequently called poms, or pom-poms, and they have the same sort of general shape and coat as chows. The scale is just much smaller. Chows are mid-sized dogs like pit bulls are, around knee high, and they’re notoriously one- or two-person dogs. They’re great with one or two people, and are generally okay with anyone else who actually lives in the house. With everybody else, all bets are off. I’ve met one that was good with strangers over the years, but just the one. I don’t know where she got it from–her littermates were pretty typical chows, and her father had to be kept in a run with a roof and wire floor that was padlocked shut because he was so gonzo aggressive toward everyone but the owner and his wife. And even the wife didn’t really trust him. Edited to add that I would NEVER have a chow in a house where I had kids visiting on any sort of regular basis. They’re just too damn unpredictable. I’d feel totally comfortable having pit bull around kids, strange or familiar, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-mountain-lions-and-pit-bulls/480682.md?page=7)